RE: married sub - how to tell my wife

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azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 10:31:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t Actually, he doesn't have to appeal to anyone here. I'm his significant other half. When I was first discovering power exchange, I was in a relationship of 10 years. My husband wasn't into being Dom or sub. He thought I got involved with an internet cult. It was something that appealed to my soul. I rationalized, and I went outside my marriage. OK, so it looks like I misjudged Otter. My apologies. Of course to be a devil's advocate, since he knows you are here also, couldn't he be saying things that you want to read? Wouldn't he get his ass tanned if he did anything else? Can you explain in what fashion you went outside your marriage? It looks like things worked out for you, right?

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 10:33:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit azjojoba, in the line of work I was in for a great deal of my adult life, I saw the ramifications on people's lives... both adult and children, of dishonesty, selfishness, unfaithfulness and some sort of cheating... as well as other things. There is a bigger picture that I see. What some people do to other people, in ignorance, justification and pure selfishness, is something I find very ugly and if that makes me judgemental... I am proud to wear that title. If someone is doing something that can harm another, I can get pretty disgusted and ready for battle to protect. So, what line of work were you into?

Lockit -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 10:37:13 PM)
If it matter's... I worked in domestic abuse, homelessness, the ministry, advocacy for the chronically ill and veterans, in a number of positions. Is that all you have to ask or say?

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 10:47:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit If it matter's... I worked in domestic abuse, homelessness, the ministry, advocacy for the chronically ill and veterans, in a number of positions. Is that all you have to ask or say? I thought you made yourself very clear, therefore I didn't have much to comment on. I respect your opinions even if I don't necessarily agree with them -- at least you don't beat around the bush.

SthrnCom4t -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/12/2009 9:51:07 AM)
quote: quote: OK, so it looks like I misjudged Otter. My apologies. Of course to be a devil's advocate, since he knows you are here also, couldn't he be saying things that you want to read? Wouldn't he get his ass tanned if he did anything else? Can you explain in what fashion you went outside your marriage? It looks like things worked out for you, right? First, no he wouldn't get his ass tanned. Part of his submission doesn't include agreeing with everything I do. I value his opinion and insight. I'm not perfect, and I don't expect others to be perfect. I do aspire to being the best I can be, and so that is my wish for those I am closest to as well. Short summary re: going outside my marriage The desire to taste power exchange was strong. I rationalized going outside my marriage, and did several times. I didn't find exactly what I was seeking, but did find enough to know I wanted more of it in my life. I also felt a strong sense of guilt, because my husband was a wonderful, devoted, and loving man. In the end I just realized that the place in my life that I had created, was not the right one. (Had a great job, new house, etc). I am strong-willed, so tried to bend the circumstances to fit MY NEEDS. In doing so, I was discounting and betraying one who didn't deserve to be treated in such a fashion. Cheating is selfish and disrespectful. I takes away your significant other's right to choose. (Choose to be with you, or not - wanting to participate, or not, etc). After 6 months, I made a decision, and after significant emotional trauma, we had an amicable separation. I had a lot of guilt, and so left him with everything we had worked for and built. It was very painful on all levels, but in the end, I am living as who I want to live. Am I still behind from a financial perspective - probably. Am I WAY AHEAD from an emotional intelligence and personal evolution perspective - I think so. You are not the only one who has found himself strolling down the path of life, only to find that your choices have led you to a place where some basic needs are not being met. Happens to more people than you think. A lot of time you didn't know you had that need. Other times it tickled you, but you didn't realize it was as important as you now realize it is. No matter what the subject, it's difficult when you find yourself out of sync with your significant other....sometimes by what feels like an entire ocean. What you have to fall back on is your own integrity. Even if you know she's not into it, you can introduce it slowly. If you've tried and been rejected, that was her choice. If it's something you need at your core, you have some hard choices to make. If you're willing to disregard her input, you're already too far into the 'me' place, and distanced from the 'we' place. You are no longer putting the relationship first. I understand that, and it's a big clue as to how strong within you the need is for - insert your need here-. The reality is that it's your responsibility to balance your needs, so that you can be a participant in whatever relationship you choose to be in. Your partner deserves your presence and any commitment you made. It's a contract and you can't unilaterally change the terms. If you do, you are breaking the contract, and you can rationalize that away anyway you like. This is actually a great opportunity for you, if you have the inner strength to choose wisely. It could mean a lot of changes in your life and it could mean leaving some of the comforts you now enjoy. Your needs are no less valid than hers. Likely, you need someone to hold the space (best is someone neutral like a counselor/therapist), where you can both communicate your needs in a respectful manner. Her need may be that she doesn't want to know, or hear about such things. It's your job to communicate to her how important this is, and show a willingness to be respectful of previous agreements, while pushing for change. People change, and in order for a marriage to be successful, it needs to allow the participants to evolve. The agreement you made when you got married was between the people you were then. A successful marriage can survived re-negotiation, if partners are willing to compromise, be honest, own their needs, and respect their partners needs. No one is responsible for your fulfillment or happiness but you, however, only considering yourself while disrespecting your partner won't get you very far. The same can be said of her - she can choose not to participate, but if each of you is 'doing their own thing' that is just creating more distance, instead of creating a bond. If you go far enough down separate paths, the marriage is over anyway. I've gotten very long-winded here, so to spare the group you are welcome to email me privately. I have more experience in this topic than I care to. Yes, I'm doing wonderful now, but the journey hasn't been easy. Like me, you probably think the advice people have been giving you doesn't apply for your situation. That their experiences couldn't possibly have had the consequences yours would. Eventually, you'll know differently. How long and how many times you repeat and find yourself in the same situation, is up to you.

Lockit -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/12/2009 10:31:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Now tell me what a prude I am... how cruel the dominant's around here are and all that dishonorable you got buddy. I could expect no less from you. I have no way of knowing if you are a prude, but you are quite a traditionalist and very judgemental when it comes to this cheating thing. Yes, the dominants here are cruel, but that's to be expected and is OK with me. I'm sure you have a soft heart sometimes and I am sure you would hug and kiss me if you met me in person. azjojoba... I am going to quote this post rather than your last because it points more directly to what I would like to comment on. In a way I think some of this might be better in an email but because so much prior to this was public and because it might help other's, I will do this here and tempered. You have been pretty beat up around here at times and you beat others up pretty darn good yourself. We all had our reasons... but deep down... you were angry before you even got to us and we only helped to make you angrier... then it got so bad that the mods stepped in. Whatever has happened... I am seeing a gentler you. You wouldn't have said the things you have said here to me, a while back. Whatever has changed... you do seem less angry after the last blow up around here and I wanted to say it looks good on you. Sometimes what people do, we may not like, sometimes we will hate it because it happened to us or someone close to us... but it is really something YOU do. We can often hate the action and yet NOT HATE the person. The anger you have for your wife and the relationship added to being very frustrated had to be overwhelming. Whatever has caused it all... I do hope you can find a better way of things. I would rather be nice to you and you nice to me or us than to have these little wars. I would rather see you actually making some headway in life that would lead to you're being happier. I think Sthrn was absolutely amazing to share her story and I do hope you will listen to it. I was thinking back at a BBQ I went to in CA. when I lived there. I had contact with a number of men and lawyers and saw them socially for quite a while. Most were married and we were just friends. At this party... it was very well to do people and the women knew each other and I was a stranger to them and only known to the husbands. So the women chit chatted and ignored me and I went outside and sat at a table and soon the men started drifting over. My man was cooking. I was saddened... disgusted... so disappointed in what I saw at this party. This was real and true... housewives of Orange County. Multi million dollar homes... and the attitudes that came with them. The men, all except one... wanted out of their marriages and were not happy sexually. I do know that at least two of them had 'date's' or girlfriends. The reasons they didn't leave their wives... one and most important to them and what they spoke about was... the money.. the house and all they would lose. The second reason... and this was actually said just like this... I would miss the kids. And another said he would too. My point here is that everyone gets hurt no matter what is done and the reasons for staying boil down to a choice based on... you can't always have everything you want. Is money and are things more important than living true to yourself and honestly? I knew some of the kids in these marriages. They were upper crust and spoiled for the most part... but I cannot say one of them I knew was happy. Their parents priorities were off... they had material things and absent parents becasue the men stayed away from home as much as they could. Later in the office... more time out on the town... which is how I knew them at first. Whether it is a distancing these ways or online or something else... there is a distancing and there is an effect from the isolation of healthy people with healthy family relationships. People are getting emotionally cheated. So azjojoba... while I may not like what you do... I don't have to hate you as a person and would hope that this gentler you will grow strong and maybe we can all see that we do have more in common than first seen with all the anger and attitudes from everywhere. I don't want to dread seeing you around. I would like to be happy to see you and your post and know that somehow... you are finding some peace and your way in your situation.... even if you haven't quite worked out how you are going to continue and whether or not you change anything at this point. We can disagree and still not hate.

LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/12/2009 11:11:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Now tell me what a prude I am... how cruel the dominant's around here are and all that dishonorable you got buddy. I could expect no less from you. I have no way of knowing if you are a prude, but you are quite a traditionalist and very judgemental when it comes to this cheating thing. Yes, the dominants here are cruel, but that's to be expected and is OK with me. I'm sure you have a soft heart sometimes and I am sure you would hug and kiss me if you met me in person. I missed this. Even though it was addressed to Lockit, I'm going to comment on it anyway. This is personal opinion only, but I don't think it is cruel to express distaste or even disgust in the personal choices made by someone when they are very specifically harmful to a third party. This is especially true when it comes to that third party not having any knowledge or awareness to consent. I don't see this as any different than participating in WIITWD with My boy and then attempting the same acts with a random person on the street who had no choice in Me inflicting My sadism on them. What your post history has described on these boards is not a case of YKINMK. It's a case of you are, willfully and knowingly, risking the mental and possibly physical health of your significant other. To Me, that is cruel. There's no act of sadism that I can come up with that could cause the kind of pain, long lasting, serious trauma, that I could possibly conceive, that could compare to it. The fact that you may or may not have become gentler around the boards doesn't matter much to Me, because that part of you hasn't changed. The very fact that you continue in your search for a Dominant female without your wife's knowledge only confirms this. You can change your words all that you like. I'm an actions speak louder than words person, and I'm pretty sure that I'll continue to be so. Yes, I'm very harsh in My words, but I have to tell you that I have greater sympathy for your wife than I have for you. If you should ever change your thinking and your actions, that may be different. But until that time that you are willing to see the ramifications of potential harm that you would inflict, in fact are specifically attempting to inflict by continuing your pursuit, I'll have no better opinion.

MsMillgrove -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 7:29:32 AM)
It's been repeated over and over--we don't know the "other", the third person. How does she think/feel? If I went to ten of my married female friends, aged 40-60 and said the following. "What if you husband wanted to do some kinky things, something like wear silk panties or ask you to tie him up and tickle him, or spank him, would you do it? And if you told him, no, i really don't want to...how would you feel if he went to a professional expert in bdsm, who would permit no touching of private parts, of either person, no sexual release. If he paid her for her service. If he wanted to know if these fantasies of his were something he truly would enjoy in life. Could you be ok if you didn't know anything about it and he continued to be a good husband and father?" I would bet that six out of ten of these ladies would tell me, no i don't want to do these things, yes it's ok if he does it so discreetly, that no one knows, including me. One would say I'd divorce him, one would say, I might try some things to please him and the other two would say: I am not sure. That's my guess and the personalized trading of judgement and insult in this thread frustrates me so much that I am actually thinking of conducting this experiment to see if the real numbers match up to the guess.

Venatrix -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 7:49:44 AM)
As you correctly point out, there's no telling how a woman would react. The problem is, sneaking around removes from her the right to make a decision about the situation. It's my belief that men who are sneaking about when "all" they want is to explore non-sexual BDSM already know that their wives will react badly, and either don't have the balls to deal with the situation, or are trying to have their apple tart and eat it, too. Whatever the case, sneaking around is reprehensible behaviour.

LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 9:22:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix As you correctly point out, there's no telling how a woman would react. The problem is, sneaking around removes from her the right to make a decision about the situation. It's my belief that men who are sneaking about when "all" they want is to explore non-sexual BDSM already know that their wives will react badly, and either don't have the balls to deal with the situation, or are trying to have their apple tart and eat it, too. Whatever the case, sneaking around is reprehensible behaviour. Truthfully, I couldn't agree more. There's not a thing wrong with any of the activities that people want to explore. The problem lies in the deceit that some are willing to engage in to have that opportunity.

Lockit -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 10:00:36 AM)
Well, seeing as though most the men who contact me in email, that I do not know, want that physical touch and that cum and that is why they have their fantasy and contact me, I believe that for most it is sexual. A few of the submissive men around here that do claim to see a professional are having sex with them and thus the argument of whether they are a professional dominant or otherwise. I do believe that some justify what they want and feel they cannot have when they 'protect' (that is sarcasm) the spouse or self. I do believe that in most families the income going to a professional visit could be something that the family would hurt from. I also believe that men seeking online... going out... trying to get their sex on whether it is vanilla or kink, are cheating their families of focus, attention and a healthy relationships. There may be some that would have no effect... but from what I have seen, I have a hard time believing that. If a spouse accepts a policy of 'what I don't know won't hurt me'... so be it. But they really have no choice in the matter if they haven't been asked. I am sure that most spouses would have a problem with their spouse being untruthful. I see women that have that stand of what I don't know won't hurt me because they don't want to lose the comfortable place they have in life and yet I would heartily question what they have in a personal relationship because something is broken. If they are open to swinging or his/her playing around... cool, but many are not aware. How many posts around here are started by people open to many kink things and yet... the broken hearted come a posting, upset because their partner isn't being honest with them or is looking for more outside the relationship. What about the kids who have a parent running around trying to get their needs met who is absent from their live's somehow? Are we saying that those who wouldn't care are cold fish who have no sexual needs themselves or that they would accept it because they don't want to lose a good husband or daddy, that just happens to have urges he cannot control? What does it take for a woman to say she would rather keep the man who must go outside the relationship for more? I do not believe there is any justification for being dishonest with someone we made committments to... or for that matter... anyone else. If we must hide it, there is something very wrong and I can't beleive that most would have no problem with that. I also do not believe that people are honestly happy in situations like this. They accept less to keep the family together... to keep the house and comforts and not be single parents or persons and that is settling for far less than what they are worth. If they accept if because of fear, there is really a problem. Some do it... but... it breaks down relationships and people and if that is okay to someone... I think it crazy, because the long term effects can lead to a lot of unhappiness. I don't believe we can justify it all without horrible ramifications all the way around and to justify it to make it easier is just faulty if one wants good relationships or even a healthy self respect.

LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 10:08:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove It's been repeated over and over--we don't know the "other", the third person. How does she think/feel? If I went to ten of my married female friends, aged 40-60 and said the following. "What if you husband wanted to do some kinky things, something like wear silk panties or ask you to tie him up and tickle him, or spank him, would you do it? And if you told him, no, i really don't want to...how would you feel if he went to a professional expert in bdsm, who would permit no touching of private parts, of either person, no sexual release. If he paid her for her service. If he wanted to know if these fantasies of his were something he truly would enjoy in life. Could you be ok if you didn't know anything about it and he continued to be a good husband and father?" I would bet that six out of ten of these ladies would tell me, no i don't want to do these things, yes it's ok if he does it so discreetly, that no one knows, including me. One would say I'd divorce him, one would say, I might try some things to please him and the other two would say: I am not sure. That's my guess and the personalized trading of judgement and insult in this thread frustrates me so much that I am actually thinking of conducting this experiment to see if the real numbers match up to the guess. I think your numbers are a little off, but since it's only hypothetical, there's no way to establish a counter view. All I can say is that, since I've been 'out' to most of the vanilla people that I've known, either through work or other associations, I don't think the numbers of those who would be ok in paying a pro (I really think 'expert' is a bit of a reach) would be that high. Most vanilla women that I've talked to have been ok with what I do, but wouldn't want their SO involved in it. Quite frankly, the same women who would anxious to hear on Monday what I had done during a trip to Atlanta over the course of a weekend, some who even used to want to see pictures of My work in BDSM, would have a much different attitude when it came to their own males at home. To take one of your examples in the above, if a male approached his wife and asked her about the pink panties, and she absolutely refused to want him doing that with her, the answer really is simple. Buy the panties and then inform the wife that he will be attending the closest BDSM club on the next weekend. That way, he gets to live out his fetish, the wife knows what he is doing, and you remove the lying about the activities. It seriously isn't that difficult to find a play partner at most groups and events. If that's all someone wants, it isn't that hard to find. The problem with it is, most people going behind the back of someone else aren't really just doing it for the bondage or the S/m. They want the sexual exploration too, and THAT is why they don't want to tell the little woman at home.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 2:31:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact To take one of your examples in the above, if a male approached his wife and asked her about the pink panties, and she absolutely refused to want him doing that with her, the answer really is simple. Buy the panties and then inform the wife that he will be attending the closest BDSM club on the next weekend. That way, he gets to live out his fetish, the wife knows what he is doing, and you remove the lying about the activities. It seriously isn't that difficult to find a play partner at most groups and events. If that's all someone wants, it isn't that hard to find. The problem with it is, most people going behind the back of someone else aren't really just doing it for the bondage or the S/m. They want the sexual exploration too, and THAT is why they don't want to tell the little woman at home. I can tell you the kink satisfied several needs -- and yes the sex drive is what pushes it. In my wife's case I don't think she would care if sex was involved or not, she still wouldn't be happy with me using a pro. I haven't found it easy to find a play partner in Phoenix. A few I met on Craigslist, one on CM, and that's it. Organizations like APEX are much more oriented for couples, but don't get me wrong there are plenty of married people that are going there for a fix of BDSM.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 2:36:14 PM)
[/quote] Well let's face it, men just have to have sex more than women. That presents a big problem for married couples because eventually that manifests itself as infedelity. Older women are insecure but the compound that problem by losing interest in having sex with their husbands. They must know that not having sex is going to cause problems, but seem to ignore it.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 2:38:33 PM)
Lockit, perhaps I do have more empathy and less anger. I still like to get bratty so don't be surprised when that happens. Those are some nice things you said and I appreciate them.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 3:23:04 PM)
I am going to disagree with LP here and say that it really CAN be difficult to find a play partner at events. Speaking as a dominant, if my sub isn't attending with me, chances are I will not be playing, unless it's with someone I already know well. Yes, the pool here is really that shallow. And, I am that picky! [;)] I know several women whose issue is that their men have the lower sex drive... so that is not a good generalization, just one that is true for you, Az. Lots of reasons for the why, and is your wife motivated to fix the issue? At any rate, I do acknowledge that you are in a lousy situation, and you are not alone. Maybe you can find some married gal who is looking, and be sneaky together! It can happen.

Venatrix -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 3:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba Well let's face it, men just have to have sex more than women. That presents a big problem for married couples because eventually that manifests itself as infedelity. Older women are insecure but the compound that problem by losing interest in having sex with their husbands. They must know that not having sex is going to cause problems, but seem to ignore it. Your ability to justify infidelity is truly impressive, if not particularly original. In any case, the vast majority of older women I know who aren't having sex with their husbands haven't lost interest in sex, they've lost interest in their partners. Maybe men need to step up their game a bit when they get older, too, huh? You really ought to come clean with your wife. Perhaps she'll welcome having a reason to get rid of you. I know I would, were I in her shoes.

WyldHrt -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 4:41:52 PM)
quote: Well let's face it, men just have to have sex more than women. That presents a big problem for married couples because eventually that manifests itself as infedelity. Older women are insecure but the compound that problem by losing interest in having sex with their husbands. They must know that not having sex is going to cause problems, but seem to ignore it. Ahem... this is complete bullshit. While it is true for certain couples, I know plenty of women with higher sex drives than their husbands. I was one, hence the reason I am now divorced.

Lockit -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/13/2009 7:52:39 PM)
I don't believe that men have a higher sex drive than women and I have said this repeatedly on these boards. It is a falasy and most the women here are proof that that cannot be true. We have just as much hunger as a man if we are getting good sex and are healthy, which can be just as it is with a man. Besides that some may believe it is cold women and hot men... what other thing could be the reason that someone doesn't want to have sex with you? Are you putting on the charm with sincerity? Are you putting value on her or him? Are you paying attention to the relationship and making it something worthwhile so that all the good feelings lead to enjoyment in and outside the bed? Relationships can be complex. When we boil them down to... she is cold and doesn't need it and I am hot and need it... it's bull shit. Why does a person stay in a relationship that has broken down and sex has dried up? Two people can lose what they may have once had... but the bottom line is... what the hell are you going to do about it? Play the blame game... go focus on yourself without having honor which will wear you down... or face what you should have faced during the break down of the relationship and fix it or leave it? If you stay and don't fix it... don't fool yourself thinking that things will get better if you just find the right one to fuck. There is no easy way. But there is a more honorable way and as tough as that way can be... you come out respecting yourself and far better off than excusing yourself.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/14/2009 12:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t Short summary re: going outside my marriage Thankyou for that very thoughtful reply! You took my breath away because you are the first one I have read that REALLY understands. You gave me a lot to think about, so don't think my short reply in any way is a measure of my respect for the things you spent your personal time to write. I will read your post at least 10 more times before having further comments.

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