RE: married sub - how to tell my wife

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LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/9/2009 7:42:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove I wish Irished, the original poster, would come back to update. Hate a mystery. There were two generalized sets of advice offered him. One was to take it very slow, research, make a plan, and not pop up one day with a full confession using a hot button word like "slave". The other advice was along the lines of tell all, tell now, open communication, sit down and talk etc. So of course he picked the second choice and it left him miserable. I'm curious as to how you are making this determination. Did I miss something on this thread somewhere? quote: Re: cheating and betrayal. Is it so impossible to tell the wife you want to see a bdsm expert, that you have no idea if these things are going to be fun between the two of you, that maybe it's not as fun as it seems, that injury is a possibility in experiments with spouses were neither has any experience. Thinking as a vanilla wife, which I was for awhile, I would listen to a reasonable suggestion. I'd ask questions about the person's qualifications that my husband wanted to see. I'd be relieved maybe that he would take this experiment someplace else, and let me know what happened. Some males like to take a ski trip.. or go with friends to an expensive football game--the pro domme fee's about the same as that. Many wives don't object to expenses a male incurs, esp if they don't want to go themselves. That may be true in some cases, but I'd be willing to lay money in most that it's not. A night at the strip club would cost less than a ski trip, and I'm willing to bet there are a lot of vanilla wives that wouldn't be ok with that one. Also, let's be a little realistic here. Most people just starting out aren't jumping in with the eight foot whip, sounds, violet wand, or any of the more extreme activities that would be more likely to cause injury. quote: As long as the wife is informed that there is no penetration, no sex acts as she would understand a sex act, I think many wives would think it over and say, ok, just one time and then you tell me about it. I never heard of any guy trying this, the advice is usually to hide the action. Deceit, lying--is what hurts. Not so much the action itself as the deceit involved. Why does no one ever make this suggestion? To get the wife's ok on a one-time visit to a bdsm expert (yeah let's not use terms like dominatrix.. just a therapuetic worker who is an expert in fetishes.) You're correct that I don't suggest that folks go to see a pro specifically, though I have quite often suggested that folks go out and meet others in the local community for it. In My opinion, there is a greater assurance for the vanilla wife at home that there won't be any sexual release for the male because many public clubs don't permit it.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/9/2009 10:53:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove Re: cheating and betrayal. Is it so impossible to tell the wife you want to see a bdsm expert, that you have no idea if these things are going to be fun between the two of you, that maybe it's not as fun as it seems, that injury is a possibility in experiments with spouses were neither has any experience. That sounds reasonable in theory but wouldn't work in practice. The problem for us married guys is that if we told our wives that we wanted to see a bdsm expert they would automatically think we wanted to see a whore. Then of course they would wonder how long we have been having sex with whores. It would create a chain of trouble. Of course a certain percentage of wives would be open to the idea, but it's a risky gamble for guys to take. Doing it on the sly seems far less risky. Also, the mere mention of BDSM could disrupt a marriage -- especially if the husband isn't sure he wants that kind of arrangement. Visiting a pro allows him to find out for himself if that kind of thing works for him. Look at it as a test run. Another alternative would be to ask the wife to watch so she would have no reason to be suspicious. I'm sure there are pitfalls with that one too. quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove As long as the wife is informed that there is no penetration, no sex acts as she would understand a sex act, I think many wives would think it over and say, ok, just one time and then you tell me about it. I never heard of any guy trying this, the advice is usually to hide the action. I am sure that very few wives would understand this. Most of them are not capable of understanding the difference between a pro domme and a prostitute. It would be interesting to hear from guys that did try this. quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove Deceit, lying--is what hurts. Not so much the action itself as the deceit involved. Why does no one ever make this suggestion? To get the wife's ok on a one-time visit to a bdsm expert (yeah let's not use terms like dominatrix.. just a therapuetic worker who is an expert in fetishes.) The problem as I see it is that a wife that has no experience in BDSM isn't going to understand why the hubby wants to try this. Sometimes in marriage deceit is a necessary thing -- this might be one of them. I'm not necessarily advocating for guys to see pro dommes -- it's not really my kind of thing. The only other alternative is to be with a non pro, which some here think is cheating. It's a dilemma I don't know the answer for because it's still something that I struggle with.

MsMillgrove -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/10/2009 4:33:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove I wish Irished, the original poster, would come back to update. Hate a mystery. There were two generalized sets of advice offered him. One was to take it very slow, research, make a plan, and not pop up one day with a full confession using a hot button word like "slave". The other advice was along the lines of tell all, tell now, open communication, sit down and talk etc. So of course he picked the second choice and it left him miserable. I'm curious as to how you are making this determination. Did I miss something on this thread somewhere? Well at one point he came back, he said he laid it out to his wife, that he wanted to be her slave, that she said she had no interest and he felt miserable. Course I could have my head up my ass and I got that confused with another, but I am pretty sure it was the OP who indicated the outcome of his "sitdown and open up" session wasn't successful. MsMIllgrove said: [ quote: As long as the wife is informed that there is no penetration, no sex acts as she would understand a sex act, I think many wives would think it over and say, ok, just one time and then you tell me about it. I never heard of any guy trying this, the advice is usually to hide the action. Deceit, lying--is what hurts. Not so much the action itself as the deceit involved. Why does no one ever make this suggestion? To get the wife's ok on a one-time visit to a bdsm expert (yeah let's not use terms like dominatrix.. just a therapuetic worker who is an expert in fetishes.) LadyPact replied: You're correct that I don't suggest that folks go to see a pro specifically, though I have quite often suggested that folks go out and meet others in the local community for it. In My opinion, there is a greater assurance for the vanilla wife at home that there won't be any sexual release for the male because many public clubs don't permit it. Ah true, but in the public clubs I go to, it's kind of a mindblower for a firstimer. They do look a bit shell shocked on their first visits. I suppose that if the male went first with a friendly kinkster.. maybe he could feel more confident in bringing his wife over for a look. It's a good idea. LadyPact, I appreciate your feedback and others because I was trying to imagine myself inside the vanilla wife head and what solutions would be practical. I am inundated with married males. I even have a sub who is married (with the wife's full permission and knowledge) so I am very interested to figure out, is there any hope in this dilemna on how to handle the situation. I think it comes down to specifics that suit the couple involved and not necesarily a generalized "plan" of action. I am dead set against using words from the bdsm lexicon that will turn off the vanilla wife, there's ways you can phrase things that will frighten them, disgust them and I truly believe that any man who hopes for a good outcome should stay away from the all the bdsm buzz words and try to sound as vanilla as he can. I am actually against talking if the truth be told and think that silent methods of action to the wife like pampering her fully, helping around the house and serving her like the Queen she is--is a much better first step then talking about it. Again thank you for your excellent, thoughtful reply.

MsMillgrove -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/10/2009 4:50:54 AM)
[ \ quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove As long as the wife is informed that there is no penetration, no sex acts as she would understand a sex act, I think many wives would think it over and say, ok, just one time and then you tell me about it. I never heard of any guy trying this, the advice is usually to hide the action. AzJojoba replied: I am sure that very few wives would understand this. Most of them are not capable of understanding the difference between a pro domme and a prostitute. It would be interesting to hear from guys that did try this. MsMillgrove adds: Well, that's why I mention the idea--I don't think anyone has tried it. And it's pretty easy to show a wife the text from a solid pro dommes ad. (let's skip the photo at this time. lol) because many make it very clear that NO SEX act can occur. I can't think like a vanilla wife, so I am at a disadvantage, but I have a ton of Extremely conservative married women friends. Most of them do not want to lose their husbands. They put up with some rather surprising things from them. I think if a guy made an attempt to include his wife in the process, as in constantly reassuring her that he needs her help in figuring how to do this, and doesn't want to go behind her back. Explaining to her that many men do this... fear to discuss and do decieve their wives. I think the wife might feel some safety in that it's not going to be lies and deceit. That her husband won't do anything that she's not ok with. Of course, the husband has to be completely honest with himsef and recognize that he cannot go to the pro if the wife won't ok it. If he really loves his wife, I think he could be very convincing in saying that he won't do this unless she gives the ok on it. Well it's a thought, there's so many ideas that don't work that well either.. that people try, like showing the pictures in a magazine, leaving books about. And there's one other thing that I am not sure if we covered in this thread.. That's the difference between d/s and kinky sex games. Very few guy with zero experience, never having met a mistress real time, have an understanding of the d/s dynamic in practice. They have fantasies, they're not going to work well in real time. Sometimes I think the first step is defining--is this just a fetish, desires to play kinky games? Cause there's plenty of ladies that will play some of them. Scarves around the wrist. Tease and denial. I think that some of the men never tried to introduce small sexy games to the wife that she would like. A lot of the books and articles suggest great ways to introduce lightly kinky stuff to get an idea of what might be easy for a married couple to experiment.

OttersSwim -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/10/2009 11:05:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba That sounds reasonable in theory but wouldn't work in practice. The problem for us married guys is that if we told our wives that we wanted to see a bdsm expert they would automatically think we wanted to see a whore. Then of course they would wonder how long we have been having sex with whores. It would create a chain of trouble. Of course a certain percentage of wives would be open to the idea, but it's a risky gamble for guys to take. Doing it on the sly seems far less risky. Also, the mere mention of BDSM could disrupt a marriage -- especially if the husband isn't sure he wants that kind of arrangement. Visiting a pro allows him to find out for himself if that kind of thing works for him. Look at it as a test run. Another alternative would be to ask the wife to watch so she would have no reason to be suspicious. I'm sure there are pitfalls with that one too. There is more to being a man than just opening doors and lifting heavy objects for a Lady. There is -honor- and -duty- and -fealty-. Fealty not only to the word you have given to "love and honor", but also to the very essence of being a man - which says that you do not shirk responsibility, you do not go back on your word, and you certainly do not sneak, lie, or betray one to whom you have sworn yourself to. When we do that, we don't just betray her, we betray ourselves. I know exactly what this is like and how hard it can be when you feel you have something to loose. I have told all of my partners that I was transgendered early on in our relationships. Every time, I was starting to feel love and realized that if I said -anything- about this part of me, that it might end -everything-. But I did it anyway because that is what a man - even a transgendered man - does. We don't always act with integrity in our lives and I have certainly fallen down as much as anyone. But it is never too late to face yourself, own your kink, and be honest in your relationships - even at the risk of loss of everything you hold dear. It is not only what a man does, but what any fully realized person does - be authentic to themselves and those they love. First.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/10/2009 11:07:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim There is more to being a man than just opening doors and lifting heavy objects for a Lady. There is -honor- and -duty- and -fealty-. Fealty not only to the word you have given to "love and honor", but also to the very essence of being a man - which says that you do not shirk responsibility, you do not go back on your word, and you certainly do not sneak, lie, or betray one to whom you have sworn yourself to. You are quite an idealist.

LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 12:15:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove Ah true, but in the public clubs I go to, it's kind of a mindblower for a firstimer. They do look a bit shell shocked on their first visits. I suppose that if the male went first with a friendly kinkster.. maybe he could feel more confident in bringing his wife over for a look. It's a good idea. LadyPact, I appreciate your feedback and others because I was trying to imagine myself inside the vanilla wife head and what solutions would be practical. I am inundated with married males. I even have a sub who is married (with the wife's full permission and knowledge) so I am very interested to figure out, is there any hope in this dilemna on how to handle the situation. I think it comes down to specifics that suit the couple involved and not necesarily a generalized "plan" of action. I am dead set against using words from the bdsm lexicon that will turn off the vanilla wife, there's ways you can phrase things that will frighten them, disgust them and I truly believe that any man who hopes for a good outcome should stay away from the all the bdsm buzz words and try to sound as vanilla as he can. I am actually against talking if the truth be told and think that silent methods of action to the wife like pampering her fully, helping around the house and serving her like the Queen she is--is a much better first step then talking about it. Again thank you for your excellent, thoughtful reply. You're quite welcome. I appreciate yours as well. What might be one idea, rather than a large public club, might be one of the smaller groups where there are play parties involved or events for first timers. I agree with breaking in the spouse slowly. I've had to do that Myself. I can't say I particularly agree with sheltering the spouse from terminology. I think the spouse is more informed that way. When it came to clip's wife, we had to explain just about everything, even the significance of his collar. It wouldn't have made much sense for it to be called a leather necklace just for her benefit. If she ever would chose to become more involved, rather than just have knowledge, it could make for confusion.

Lockit -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 9:39:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim There is more to being a man than just opening doors and lifting heavy objects for a Lady. There is -honor- and -duty- and -fealty-. Fealty not only to the word you have given to "love and honor", but also to the very essence of being a man - which says that you do not shirk responsibility, you do not go back on your word, and you certainly do not sneak, lie, or betray one to whom you have sworn yourself to. You are quite an idealist. Idealist? Why am I not surprised you are saying something like that? Actually, Otter knows very well what he is talking about and living out in life which is most likely something you could never know or experience. Sometimes ya got it and sometimes you don't... and you just don't and won't. Now tell me what a prude I am... how cruel the dominant's around here are and all that dishonorable you got buddy. I could expect no less from you.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 10:10:02 AM)
Otters, you continue to impress me!! I'm glad that there are men like you around to provide the right kind of example for a good PERSON, let alone a good submissive!

OttersSwim -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 11:17:25 AM)
I can't claim any credit or accolade for these ideals that I am expressing. They were taught to me by a woman first, and then by a succession of males in my life. I believe they are principles that most men will have been taught and seen in action in fathers, brothers, mentors and friends. We don't always live up to them, and I am no exception, but I do try to live my life by them as much as I can and I am not by any means unique nor any sort to be held as an example of the breed.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 11:27:04 AM)
You really are, Otters. SO many folks talk about leather ideals, you really display them!

LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 11:53:04 AM)
The serious problem with threads on this particular subject is that they are often used for justification for a married male's choosing the option of cheating, lying, or visiting a pro behind the wife's back. Even when a number of folks come forward to say that it doesn't have to be that way, and are a perfectly legitimate example of why it can work, there's always some <cough> submissive who wants to go on about why being unscrupulous is the answer. Otters, thankfully, we have you to counter balance them. Now, learn to take a compliment, and say "thank you".

OttersSwim -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 1:06:56 PM)
Thank you. [:)]

LadyHibiscus -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 2:20:10 PM)
You're welcome. [:)]

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 6:32:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact The serious problem with threads on this particular subject is that they are often used for justification for a married male's choosing the option of cheating, lying, or visiting a pro behind the wife's back. Even when a number of folks come forward to say that it doesn't have to be that way, and are a perfectly legitimate example of why it can work, there's always some <cough> submissive who wants to go on about why being unscrupulous is the answer. Otters, thankfully, we have you to counter balance them. Now, learn to take a compliment, and say "thank you". My reasoning on this thread is very sound, especially considering the original question asked. Sometimes there is a good reason for not letting the old lady know. What Otter wrote is just fine, but it's idealistic and naive, and was probably more of an attempt to appeal to the women here that like to trash men that want something outside of their marriage.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 6:34:10 PM)
I know you had some great reason why we should approve of men who lie, cheat, and break vows... but I don't recall it, and I don't need to be reminded.

azjojoba -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 6:35:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Now tell me what a prude I am... how cruel the dominant's around here are and all that dishonorable you got buddy. I could expect no less from you. I have no way of knowing if you are a prude, but you are quite a traditionalist and very judgemental when it comes to this cheating thing. Yes, the dominants here are cruel, but that's to be expected and is OK with me. I'm sure you have a soft heart sometimes and I am sure you would hug and kiss me if you met me in person.

SthrnCom4t -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 7:02:58 PM)
quote: My reasoning on this thread is very sound, especially considering the original question asked. Sometimes there is a good reason for not letting the old lady know. What Otter wrote is just fine, but it's idealistic and naive, and was probably more of an attempt to appeal to the women here that like to trash men that want something outside of their marriage. azjojoba - Actually, he doesn't have to appeal to anyone here. I'm his significant other half. When I was first discovering power exchange, I was in a relationship of 10 years. My husband wasn't into being Dom or sub. He thought I got involved with an internet cult. It was something that appealed to my soul. I rationalized, and I went outside my marriage. Here's what I discovered....and Otters has heard me talk about it. It's not just about betraying the other person. It's about giving away your integrity. It means, for whatever reason, you aren't ready to be completely truthful to yourself, and therefore, you don't have the grounding or foundation to be truthful with others either. That's fine, own it. Owning it, is the first step toward evolving to a place of living as your authentic self. Coming here and trying to convince those of us who have walked through the fire otherwise is just blowing air. As an aside, Otters was faithful in a very long-term relationship, that by all rights wasn't meeting his needs for over a decade. He didn't cheat, nor lie, nor give away his integrity. He deserves the praise he receives on this board, because he's not just blowing air....he lives what he says.

LadyPact -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 7:17:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact The serious problem with threads on this particular subject is that they are often used for justification for a married male's choosing the option of cheating, lying, or visiting a pro behind the wife's back. Even when a number of folks come forward to say that it doesn't have to be that way, and are a perfectly legitimate example of why it can work, there's always some <cough> submissive who wants to go on about why being unscrupulous is the answer. Otters, thankfully, we have you to counter balance them. Now, learn to take a compliment, and say "thank you". My reasoning on this thread is very sound, especially considering the original question asked. Sometimes there is a good reason for not letting the old lady know. No, there's not. What there is would be repercussions from the wife at home that you are not willing to face. Deal with it. quote: What Otter wrote is just fine, but it's idealistic and naive, and was probably more of an attempt to appeal to the women here that like to trash men that want something outside of their marriage. Wrong again. First of all, Otters has a very lovely lady, who I've met personally. They are a wonderful match together. I can assure you that what you say here isn't the case. Not to mention, there are quite a few of us around here who have either a D or a s who happen to be married to someone else. Mine's wife is fully aware of the things I do to him, up to and including things like branding him, cutting him, strap on play with him, and a number of other things that I've written about on these boards. Quite frankly, the reason it works for him instead of you is because of the fact that, when we met, I told him that I wouldn't play with him at all unless I could verify that his wife knew and approved of the arrangement. My assurances in this have been proven time and time again, including talking with her I can't tell you how many times in the last two and a half years. People don't have to be dishonest. They have a choice.

Lockit -> RE: married sub - how to tell my wife (12/11/2009 9:30:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azjojoba quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Now tell me what a prude I am... how cruel the dominant's around here are and all that dishonorable you got buddy. I could expect no less from you. I have no way of knowing if you are a prude, but you are quite a traditionalist and very judgemental when it comes to this cheating thing. Yes, the dominants here are cruel, but that's to be expected and is OK with me. I'm sure you have a soft heart sometimes and I am sure you would hug and kiss me if you met me in person. azjojoba, in the line of work I was in for a great deal of my adult life, I saw the ramifications on people's lives... both adult and children, of dishonesty, selfishness, unfaithfulness and some sort of cheating... as well as other things. There is a bigger picture that I see. What some people do to other people, in ignorance, justification and pure selfishness, is something I find very ugly and if that makes me judgemental... I am proud to wear that title. If someone is doing something that can harm another, I can get pretty disgusted and ready for battle to protect. I don't care if a person's child is a minor or an adult... a parent cheating on another is going to wound the whole family in some way. There is no reason on this earth that I can think of that justifies harmful actions to live as one wishes by using lies and cheating or anything that would wound another. On the other hand... I feel that honor and love protects people and accountablity to self and those we call family or loved ones is most important and not idealistic by any means. Saying it is idealistic to have decent charactor is a justification to excuse one from being a decent human being and doing what is right for more than themselves. Again, if that makes me judgemental... I am proud to be so. If someone doesn't have the balls to be honest, face the music of what would take place if they lived honestly... then... they don't deserve anything but contempt becasue they will do harm by living otherwise. Somewhere, somehow... resentment or things hidden... and deceit will be exposed to some degree. I would rather not have to deal with those lacks with people I claim to love by being married to them or in a relationship that turns dishonest by one cheating or lying spouse.

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