RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (Full Version)

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marieToo -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:24:00 AM)

Either way, the bottom line is that people are always defending their "submissiveness' to otherwise clueless people.  Whether you idendify as a submissive, slave, doormat, whatever, there will always be people challenging it. 



sirsholly -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:25:41 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

  Submissive types - particularly female s-types (yeah generalisation alert) are thee worst at insisting that *insert whiney voice here* - 'just because I am submissive I am not submissive to you' - omg that gets so old.  Get over it already.  

 

 

not now, but in the past i would say that in response to the treasured "on your knees, bitch!" e-mails...



marieToo -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:28:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
No more old or whiney than submissive types who continuously defend/explain their "doormat status".  As you said, any dom worth their salt will understand it.  Yet we continue to see this over and over again.  


Marie, I would have given you more credit.  An assumption on my part and an incorrect one obviously.
I'm not defending.  I am explaining a personal example based on experience.
The claim I cited is based on flawed logic and is placed on assumption.
 
It might be old news, but it isn't whiney - unless I was stamping my foot and demanding I am a doormat, but not YOURS.[;)]
 
the.dark.

 
Wow.
 
I said defend or explain.  You've missed the point.  Either I put it wrong, or you took it wrong, or a little of both.
 
I could have explained further, but won't bother, as the insult is really unappreciated and not something I would have expected after you just got done preaching about such behavior.  Guess I gave you too much credit as well.



GreedyTop -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:32:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

You have to be submissive to be a submissive.


that might be true for a few people, but not for the majority that this slave has encountered.  it's a misconception that this slave used to have as well, but plenty of others have informed her that it is just not the case for them.
 
for many, the statement above would need to be revamped to look something like this, to be an accurate representation of how they view "being" a submissive:
 
"I have to be...(pick any or all of the following that apply)
in love
inspired
respected
in a particular headspace
given a certain amount of time to get to know the person
not be seen as a "doormat", or any other object
married to the person
feeling submissive
allowed to dominate from time to time
or any other qualifier that needs to be inplace before I can
...be a submissive"
 
and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.  there are plenty of folks that desire a submissive to have limits and put qualifiers on their submission, on BOTH sides of the slash.  they also often report that they enjoy very fulfilling relationships by doing so.
 
ALL submissives do not have the same motivation, personality, training, desires, responsibilities or talents.
 
they are unique individuals who submit for a myriad of reasons.


*applauds Beth*
(*hugs to you both*)

as far as doormats.. mine is currently covered in cat hair.



giveeverything -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:33:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Marie, I would have given you more credit.  An assumption on my part and an incorrect one obviously.
 
 
the.dark.
WOW, I didn't see that coming. 



NihilusZero -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:33:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

What I'm saying is that whether your stating
 
"I'm submissive but I'm not submissive to you"
 
Or
 
"Just because I'm a doormat doesn't mean blah blah blah"

the.dark. was specifically referencing profiles encountered on CM via personal experience.

Maybe I haven't had enough exposure to the site in my short time here, but from what I've seen, the doormats don't whine in public. Rather, they are usually trying to explain their position in defense of slews of other mindsets that inherently look down upon them. They are speaking of personal thoughts which will be individual to each of them...not spouting off some redundant 'Captain Obvious" quote like: "becausse I'm submissive doesn't mean I'm submissive to you".

Perhaps your experiences and your interpretation of them are different, though.



NihilusZero -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:40:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
Either I put it wrong, or you took it wrong, or a little of both.

Both, I suspect.

the.dark. was making a general statement. Your response was worded in a way that appeared to subtly be directed specifically and personally in response:

quote:

No more old or whiney than submissive types who continuously defend/explain their "doormat status".


You see...the error of your comment is precisely highlighted here. Your words would suggest that the.dark., in attempting to explain things, is being "old and whiney".

Maybe you don't like the fact that slaves/doormats often have to defend themselves from the common mentality that treats them like crap (which is a hypocrisy all its own)...but that does not make it whiney.

Having to deal with that consistently demonstrable mindset from many, however, does indeed get old.



RCdc -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:42:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VivaciousSub
I'm with Bear. I haven't ever had a good experience in a situation where the phrase "doormat" got involved. Yes, some people do treat a doormat badly while other people cherish it, but it does contain strong negative connotations for me, namely being taken advantage of, walked on, cleaning the shit off someone's shoes mostly because in times where I have been 'a doormat' I experienced no positive outcome and lots of negative consequences.


And there are plenty of people who see submission as negative because they have only had negative experiences.  It's not restricted to being a doormat.  I get that people have negative experiences - I do on various acts.  But it is an act.  It only becomes a living breathing entity when you take it on in a dynamic.

quote:

That said, I don't understand how "not wishing to be or be perceived as a doormat" limits one's forward momentum in life. For me, my forward momentum takes me away from situations where I would be put in that position. I don't like being taken advantage of, or walked on, or cleaning shit off someone's shoes and being in that type of situation would hamstring me. I'm not saying that's true of everyone.

 
Two reasons.
1)Because it is based on an assumption that because one is submissive, one maybe percieved as a doormat, that politeness = submission and therefore opens the door so you will be walked over because you are in front of it.  You second guessing people by making it a statement.  You're also assuming that being a doormat is bad in general for everyone.
 
Because it is restrictive.  I am a person who simply never says never because I don't believe that you can experience personal growth that way.  Different people stir different emotions and responses in you(generic term as a person).  So to completely negate being a doormat at all right this second, blind you from the possibility that there is someone out there that can imbued you with the qualities of a doormat in a positive and beautiful way.  It may only be fleeting and ephemeral, but it is experience nonetheless.  Some people don't always want to grow, and if that rocks for them, that is cool.  But for me, it isn't healthy.
 
Submission (and even dominance) isn't always about doing what we want or what we expect.
 
the.dark.



sirsholly -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:43:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero



quote:

No more old or whiney than submissive types who continuously defend/explain their "doormat status".


You see...the error of your comment is precisely highlighted here. Your words would suggest that the.dark., in attempting to explain things, is being "old and whiney".



i did not take it that way at all...



pdv99 -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:46:57 AM)

Everybody (sub or Dom/me)deserves respect and good manners to start with - at least until some other arrangement is agreed.
Everybody's needs and desires are different, and there are lots of ways to be submissive.
If somebody elses's needs or behaviours don't meet your expectations, tell them that politely and either explain what you expect or say goodbye.
It's that simple.
There's no point in getting annoyed because other people's view of the world doesn't match your own. People use the same words to mean different things and that's just the way the world is.
Peter



RCdc -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:47:28 AM)

Luscious one
Just to make it clear, I did not believe your response rude which is why I put FR on the rest of my post.  Only that initial paragraph was in response to you specifically.
 
the.dark.



NihilusZero -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:47:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i did not take it that way at all...

Neither did others, but let's go through the happenings:

- the.dark spends numerous posts here explaining the doormat mindset and "defending" it from mistaken presumption.

- marieToo follows with a comment describing those who "defend/explain" the doormat mindset as being "old and whiney".

Is it that far a leap in logic to think either it was said intentionally or that, at least, there's a covert prod in the words used?

If I spend numerous posts saying how much I enjoy steak and a vegetarian responds to me with "meat-eaters are losers"...



RCdc -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:50:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
not now, but in the past i would say that in response to the treasured "on your knees, bitch!" e-mails...



Holly, I can't disagree with you on that.  But I do find it sucks that people perpetuate it.  But that's my own personal bugbare.
 
the.dark.



sirsholly -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:51:32 AM)

i thought the "whiney" was in response to "submissive but not your submissive" as opposed to those who defend the doormat title.



giveeverything -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:52:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i thought the "whiney" was in response to "submissive but not your submissive" as opposed to those who defend the doormat title.



That's what I thought too...... Which is kind of ironic since it negates all the people who said that phrase as an honest and authentic response to this thread.



sirsholly -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:56:12 AM)

now that i think of it...as a little wee one i can recall my mother bellowing (she was good at that) that she was no ones doormat. Hence the negativity to me.



NihilusZero -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:57:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i thought the "whiney" was in response to "submissive but not your submissive" as opposed to those who defend the doormat title.

It was, originally. Then, marie responded to it with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No more old or whiney than submissive types who continuously defend/explain their "doormat status".  As you said, any dom worth their salt will understand it. 



RCdc -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:57:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
No more old or whiney than submissive types who continuously defend/explain their "doormat status".  As you said, any dom worth their salt will understand it.  Yet we continue to see this over and over again.  


Marie, I would have given you more credit.  An assumption on my part and an incorrect one obviously.
I'm not defending.  I am explaining a personal example based on experience.
The claim I cited is based on flawed logic and is placed on assumption.
 
It might be old news, but it isn't whiney - unless I was stamping my foot and demanding I am a doormat, but not YOURS.[;)]
 
the.dark.

 
Wow.
 
I said defend or explain.  You've missed the point.  Either I put it wrong, or you took it wrong, or a little of both.
 
I could have explained further, but won't bother, as the insult is really unappreciated and not something I would have expected after you just got done preaching about such behavior.  Guess I gave you too much credit as well.


I do not usually include entire quotes - but for the purpose of explaination I am this time - so apology to anyone looking at all the quote boxes and going wtf?
 
I was being ironic marie - hence the smile and wink at the end.
In other words, if I assume something of someone or whatever, then that makes me the same as the person making assumptions of me.  I apologise if you took offense, it wasn't meant as that.  I was trying to show an example of flawed logic(guessing) Vs. personal experience.
 
the.dark.



marieToo -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 9:59:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

What I'm saying is that whether your stating
 
"I'm submissive but I'm not submissive to you"
 
Or
 
"Just because I'm a doormat doesn't mean blah blah blah"

the.dark. was specifically referencing profiles encountered on CM via personal experience.



Leaving out the last sentence of my quote sort of puts the spin on it that supports your argument.

You guys can take it however you like. 

Asking for clarification before making assumptions how something is meant (especially in this medium) might be prudent before we reach out and insult each other, which I know I haven't done. If anyone wants to read into, by all means help yourselves.



sirsholly -> RE: Where are the submissive submissives? (10/2/2008 10:01:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i thought the "whiney" was in response to "submissive but not your submissive" as opposed to those who defend the doormat title.

It was, originally. Then, marie responded to it with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No more old or whiney than submissive types who continuously defend/explain their "doormat status".  As you said, any dom worth their salt will understand it. 



i think you are picking nits



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