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RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 5:16:38 PM

Ialdabaoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Reality would be some people are better than others at certain things or qualities, but to attempt to rank a person as a whole as being better than another person is completely subjective and completely arguable.

The reasoning isn't even sound. Having a higher degree of skill at something simply means he has a higher degree of skill than me. Having more money than me means he has more money than me. Neither mean "he is a better person than me" outside of opinion.

Except that, in the real world, we evaluate people using those skills and qualities to determine whether they are useful to us to keep around. And we say "he's a better person than you" as short-hand for saying "he's someone I'd rather have around than you."

And yeah, that's subject to the fickle whim of the crowd, and different crowds have different criteria. But guess what? Social skills and appearance never go out of style. And confidence, regardless of actual skill, never go out of style. And then there's the fact that some skills are just higher-valued in a given society than others, and some subcultures are inherently "beneath" others within the common wisdom. And self-esteem is a good thing, and all, but not when it makes you forget these facts. Especially not when it causes you to say, "well, I have no reason to better myself, because I like me how I am!". Humble, objective self-analysis is always preferrable to forced confidence.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 141

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 5:17:40 PM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I was thinking this morning how when people are insecure, they are criticized for not being strong and brave and confident and able to stand on their own. And when people are confident and strong and have high standards for themselves, they are criticized for having too much ego.

And sometimes the main 'criticizer' can be one's self...and the reaction to criticizing yourself for having been too pliant can be to forcefully swing the pendulum back the other way to somehow compensate..

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Post #: 142

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 5:27:54 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I was thinking this morning how when people are insecure, they are criticized for not being strong and brave and confident and able to stand on their own. And when people are confident and strong and have high standards for themselves, they are criticized for having too much ego.

And sometimes the main 'criticizer' can be one's self...and the reaction to criticizing yourself for having been too pliant can be to forcefully swing the pendulum back the other way to somehow compensate..

Absolutely. It's the process of finding balance. Which is why I think we should give people a break who are doing just that.

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Post #: 143

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 5:48:56 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I'm thinkin' that Soft's friends aren't doing her any favors on this thread. Trying to dictate that people ignore information posted and just answer a question? Good luck with that. And seeing insult where there is none? Good luck with that too.

Cali

I dunno, Cali, I thought I saw insults a few pages ago, but then my opinion doesn't matter.

Of course your opinion matters. I think that is part of the problem on this thread though (and a lot of other threads). Often times people see opposing opinions as personal attacks. I really didn't see any personal attacks. I know that softness took issue with some stuff that LaM said....but what he said was his own honest perspective. MadRabbit gave his...and that was seen as attacks. CreativeDominant was probably the most vocal....but it was also his own honest opinion. This thread is about brutal honesty...and the most brutal part of that is that if you say that is what you value then you should be able to appreciate that same quality in others....even if it's about you. I know that there are things that I have learned in this life that I would never have been able to "see" had it not been for people who were just as capable as I of being brutally honest. And sometimes, especially when you haven't been able to see it yourself....honesty can be brutal. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was meant as an attack.

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Post #: 144

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 5:54:35 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

The point is that equality is an illusion, despite the fact that we should seek to preserve civil liberties for all humans regardless of it (and even that changes, depending on if they've broken laws...which are themselves subjective lines drawn in the sand...).

I never said people were equal. What I said what makes one person better than another is entirely subjective to individual opinion and there is no objective universal and linear scale that we can adhere to to determine the value of human being.

Inequal means different. Better is a result of applying subjective value judgements to those differences. People are inequal because they are different, but "better" is the result of opinion.

If people want to live their lives basing their sense of self worth off of the general opinion of a society, the opinion of a group, or the opinion of an individual, they are more than welcome to. I'm not.

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Post #: 145

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 5:57:54 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Except that, in the real world, we evaluate people using those skills and qualities to determine whether they are useful to us to keep around. And we say "he's a better person than you" as short-hand for saying "he's someone I'd rather have around than you."

Really? Is that how I evaluate people for friendship or intimate relations? Some people might view their interpersonal relationships in capitalist terms, but I find that to be an incredibly poor way to go at it.

quote:

And yeah, that's subject to the fickle whim of the crowd, and different crowds have different criteria. But guess what? Social skills and appearance never go out of style. And confidence, regardless of actual skill, never go out of style. And then there's the fact that some skills are just higher-valued in a given society than others, and some subcultures are inherently "beneath" others within the common wisdom. And self-esteem is a good thing, and all, but not when it makes you forget these facts. Especially not when it causes you to say, "well, I have no reason to better myself, because I like me how I am!". Humble, objective self-analysis is always preferrable to forced confidence.

And all of that goes back to my orginal point....basing your sense of value on external opinions.

If you want to do that, go ahead. Don't imply that I have to or that I do.

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Post #: 146

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 6:07:35 PM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

...there is no objective universal and linear scale that we can adhere to to determine the value of human being.

Isn't there? Or, at least, isn't there a hint of the presumption of one? Certainly from a legal standpoint, there is. If the concept of ethics exists at all, it seems to me, there must be some sort of semi-tangible constuct of it.

Note: We are severely distancing ourselves with these thoughts from anything resembling the OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Inequal means different. Better is a result of applying subjective value judgements to those differences. People are inequal because they are different, but "better" is the result of opinion.

When we're talking about purely subjective facets, yes. But...to truly espouse this point of view in a blanket sense completely undermines (as Ialdabaoth alluded) the concept of human growth. If there is not a "better" state than where we are at any moment (for verifiable issues) there is no need for progression.

Would you say we are, this day in age, in a "better" state of human tolerance having discarded the habits of non-consensual racial slavery, rather than having stayed in a cultural view that supported the idea?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

If people want to live their lives basing their sense of self worth off of the general opinion of a society, the opinion of a group, or the opinion of an individual, they are more than welcome to. I'm not.

It seems to me, by the way you are wording this, that you (passive-aggressively) actually are. The state of things is that, in truth, society's opinion need not have anything to do with self-worth (although it would be foolish to take the nature-only view that it does not help influence). So, yes...your point is made there. However, the aggression to it (of which I'm speaking generally, not making immediate presumptions concerning you) in order to uplift the self by denouncement of the outside seems like a view of emotional reaction to an 'outside' that is displeasing in the first place.

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I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 147

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 6:22:41 PM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

part of me tends to think that the causative process of "feeling good about my own" wouldn't need to come about if I wasn't predisposed to "feel inferior" because of not being "better" in the first place.

Let me attempt to remove the emotional component of what I’m trying to say.
I accept the fact that there are many people who have talents that I don’t have, are more knowledgeable in some areas than I am or are, indeed, better persons in certain instances than I could be. I can still recognize that I’m a person with worth and I am comfortable in my own skin.
Inferior and superior are only relevant to specific circumstances; they are not blanket condemnation or endorsement of a person’s value.

edited 'cuz I got 'comma happy' again

< Message edited by catize -- 10/12/2008 6:37:23 PM >

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Post #: 148

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 6:30:50 PM

marieToo

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Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamora

yeah I agree. I think that we should really focus upon the message of the OP

If I could figure out what it is, I'd be doing that, and responding, instead of reading all the bickering.

oy

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Post #: 149

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/12/2008 7:24:59 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Of course your opinion matters.

Hey there, Erin. I wrote that as a tongue in cheek thing, since that was said to me earlier in this thread. Just a silly attempt at sarcasm.

quote:

I think that is part of the problem on this thread though (and a lot of other threads). Often times people see opposing opinions as personal attacks. I really didn't see any personal attacks. I know that softness took issue with some stuff that LaM said....but what he said was his own honest perspective. MadRabbit gave his...and that was seen as attacks. CreativeDominant was probably the most vocal....but it was also his own honest opinion. This thread is about brutal honesty...and the most brutal part of that is that if you say that is what you value then you should be able to appreciate that same quality in others....even if it's about you. I know that there are things that I have learned in this life that I would never have been able to "see" had it not been for people who were just as capable as I of being brutally honest. And sometimes, especially when you haven't been able to see it yourself....honesty can be brutal. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was meant as an attack.

All good points, and thank you for the reminder that we all read what we read from our own individual perspectives, which isn't always the way they were intended. Sometimes things that weren't even directed at us hit close to home, because of something we might be dealing with on a personal level at the time.

I guess I should take my own advice about giving people a break! Ha...But then I already said, in missturbations thread about giving advice, that I don't always do that.

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Post #: 150

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 1:26:41 AM

lally3

Posts: 595
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i think we all give as good as we get on here, well, most of us do. i can recall a few times in the past when softness hasnt been exactly gentle with posters on here herself.

i have enjoyed the premis of this post, when its occurred, of people putting up their flaws in a lifestlye that has far too many purist attitudes as to how you should and shouldnt be, often then contradicted by being told you must be yourself first and foremost. ive always thought that these contradictions can be incredibly confusing for the new and uninitiated, when for many being yourself (speaking as a sub), we are often strong, opinionated, arrogant, fiesty, free spirited and apparently not in the least bit submissive on first take -

< Message edited by lally3 -- 10/13/2008 1:33:39 AM >

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Post #: 151

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 3:42:36 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: saltatrix
Hi NuevaVida.......You see we think that it is ok to give our opinion about a persons life and relationships but there are some ythings that some people need to realise..............that to Soft Your Opinions Dont Matter. The only people who do matter are her friends, that is the people who actually know her. In real life. The ones she cooks dinners for. The ones who know what her taste in music is (it's crap, honest). So before anyone else creates another post about softness can we all please take a moment to think about whether it really will make a difference to her in this topsey turvey world. or just answer her OP.

Yeah, well- they DO matter. If they didn't, then you wouldn't have a need to respond. And sorry to burst the bubble there hunni, but friends do not have a higher level of worthiness than those that aren't. Just like friends offline are not more 'friends' than those on. If you think like that, you negate any relationship softness and everyone here, including yourself has.

And besides, as much as this thread is posted by the gorgeousshyone, it's about everyone and for anyone. It's not just all about her.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/13/2008 3:43:14 AM >

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Post #: 152

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 3:45:09 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Some people are better than others. That's reality. No Jungian concept of inner self-worth affirmative action is going to change that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I will not feel inferior because someone else possesses knowledge or talent that I don’t.

Whether you'd choose to feel it or not...you would be inferior in that particular category.

This erroneous emotional attachment of self-esteem and self-worth to the status of varying degrees of competence in any and all facets of life is silly.

</snipped for brevity>

Oh just bravo.

the.dark.

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Post #: 153

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 3:57:16 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I'm a little, no not a little majorly appalled by the direction this thread has gone in places!
Softness mentioned earlier how many on the cm boards 'posture' and this has become (in places) a perfect example of exactly that.
A handful of people have had the balls to come down from their 'ivory tower' and share some of their innermost thoughts on this subject.
A few have defended Softness's position.
The rest have postured, judged and behaved like children.

I really am disgusted at the personal attacks on softness in here and yes admittedly i have a personal interest. She is my best friend and nothing could be further than the truth than what some of you have said about her. We talk about honesty and integrity all the time and when someone shows both she is slammed for it. A few people here wouldn't know honesty and integrity if it bit them on the ass.

Aw Misst. You have been here at CM long enough - you should know by now that a)there are some people who are targets and b) that those that are the non UK don't get irony any association with non perfection makes the backs of their necks stand up. There are very few people who can self depriciate without it becoming a self congratulating pat on the back about them being so 'open'.
Softiwaft 'fails the criteria' for people because she is quite happy to know and understands her faults without the need to back it up with, 'aren't I humble'? .blahblahblah. Most people can't deal or work out people who can be reflective on their own towers without bigging themselves up.

the.dark.

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Post #: 154

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 6:11:38 AM

missturbation

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quote:

Aw Misst. You have been here at CM long enough - you should know by now that a)there are some people who are targets and b) that those that are the non UK don't get irony any association with non perfection makes the backs of their necks stand up. There are very few people who can self depriciate without it becoming a self congratulating pat on the back about them being so 'open'.
Softiwaft 'fails the criteria' for people because she is quite happy to know and understands her faults without the need to back it up with, 'aren't I humble'? .blahblahblah. Most people can't deal or work out people who can be reflective on their own towers without bigging themselves up.

the.dark.

Yep, yep and yep.
Regarding being a target it's all good, we put these thoughts out there we have to take the rough replies with the smooth. I get it, i truly do and when i'm on the recieving end i couldn't give a monkeys toss. However when a friend of mine and a damn good friend at that is on the recieving end, it's a whole new ball game. I know (as do you) most of the soft one's flaws and most of her qualities. So when i see her being slammed for things that ain't true i see red. I'm very protective, not that soft needs protecting as i said before. I guess you could say it's a flaw of mine.
On point b i think the less i say the better

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Post #: 155

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 7:09:18 AM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Yeah, well- they DO matter. If they didn't, then you wouldn't have a need to respond. And sorry to burst the bubble there hunni, but friends do not have a higher level of worthiness than those that aren't. Just like friends offline are not more 'friends' than those on. If you think like that, you negate any relationship softness and everyone here, including yourself has.

And besides, as much as this thread is posted by the gorgeousshyone, it's about everyone and for anyone. It's not just all about her.

the.dark.

And whether the "your opinion doesn't count" was about me or anyone else, I feel the same. Smooch.

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Post #: 156

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 7:26:18 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I'm a little, no not a little majorly appalled by the direction this thread has gone in places!
Softness mentioned earlier how many on the cm boards 'posture' and this has become (in places) a perfect example of exactly that.
A handful of people have had the balls to come down from their 'ivory tower' and share some of their innermost thoughts on this subject.
A few have defended Softness's position.
The rest have postured, judged and behaved like children.

I really am disgusted at the personal attacks on softness in here and yes admittedly i have a personal interest. She is my best friend and nothing could be further than the truth than what some of you have said about her. We talk about honesty and integrity all the time and when someone shows both she is slammed for it. A few people here wouldn't know honesty and integrity if it bit them on the ass.

I find it interesting mist that you classify the posts in three ways...those that have shared their innermost thoughts, those that defended softness' position, and those that have "postured, judged, behaved like children". While I DID share some of my inner thoughts, I am aware that I did not defend softness" position. I also feel that, while I disagreed with her, I disagreed in a direct but non-posturing manner...as did many others. Just because we disagree with her viewpoint, it doesn't suddenly make OUR honesty and perspective and thoughts posturing...does it? Nor does it make us wrong.

There are those who defended her while doing a great deal of posturing...is that noted?

~shrugs~...I was honest with what I said. My perspective and all that...as mistoferin noted about me and others who've posted. Mist knows that opinions and insights I have don't change from here to elsewhere. softness and I got through our "stuff" here and I think...hope anyway...she knows it was no more personal than her words initially were.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 10/13/2008 7:40:49 AM >

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Post #: 157

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 7:50:46 AM

WhiplashSmile2

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I'm looking for slave labor to assist in the construction of a 30 foot tower
made of Ivory soap bars.

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Post #: 158

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 8:03:24 AM

missturbation

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quote:

While I DID share some of my inner thoughts, I am aware that I did not defend softness" position. I also feel that, while I disagreed with her, I disagreed in a direct but non-posturing manner...as did many others. [/quote
Interesting that you would choose to put yourself in the category that postured and behaved like children. I personally didn't have you in the category, i know you better than that.

quote:

Just because we disagree with her viewpoint, it doesn't suddenly make OUR honesty and perspective and thoughts posturing...does it?

No.

quote:

Nor does it make us wrong.

I don't personally believe personal opinion is ever wrong.

quote:

There are those who defended her while doing a great deal of posturing...is that noted?

I'm a middle class brit, we are incapable of posturing. Only the upper classes are allowed to behave like that over here

I really don't want to have to make a list of everyone who i felt didn't have the balls to come down from their ivory tower or postured and behaved like a child. Those who have questioned me for making these statements and have taken it personally are those who it was not aimed at. *shrugs*, but so be it.

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Post #: 159

RE: Ivory Towers .... and other false gods - 10/13/2008 8:09:51 AM

colouredin

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I cant help but think sometimes the drama takes over, I actually thought this was a really good OP and its a shame its turned into a he said she said thing it almost belitles the initial concept which I thought was a good one. I also agree with the irony that was mentioned a few pages back there is posturing on here in various forms and guises.

"Honesty is such a lonly word" such a true statement, some can be 'honest' about their faults, some can be 'honest' about their good points but rarely are people honest about both.

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Post #: 160

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