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abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 7:13:58 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Last week there was supposed to be a debate in the UK Parliament which would see the extension of the same rights to abortion for women in Northern Ireland as their fellow UK citizens in Great Britain enjoy.

At the moment, women in Northern Ireland have to travel to Great Britain for an abortion - and unlike their fellow British citizens have to pay for it. We here get it free of charge on the National Health Service (NHS).

The debate went nowhere. It emerged that the New Labour UK government had done a deal with the Unionists in Northern Ireland (the rabid Protestants who reject any idea of joining the Irish Republic and who touched off the recent troubles when they similarly rejected any notion of equal rights for Catholics in the 60s). In return for the Unionists backing the government on their proposal for  42 days detention without charge for "terror suspects", New Labour scuppered the whole thing.

Curiously, the Unionists usually side with the Conservatives in our Parliament and it was rumoured at the time of the 42 day vote that a deal had been done. At that time it was suspected the deal was something to do with water charges due to be imposed in Northern Ireland for the first time. In the meantime the 42 days detention thing has been brought to ruin in the Lords, where notably speakers from both sides of the aisle, including speakers formerly running police and intelligence services, spoke against it.

What was interesting about this was the presumption of both New Labour and the Unionists to act in such a way as to suppress the liberty of various parties; New Labour wanting to lock people up without charge for 42 days and the Unionists wanting to deprive the women of Northern Ireland the same liberties as their fellow citizens enjoy.

What was also interesting was the unlikely alliance and dealing done to do so. If the liberties and rights of the citizenry are to be considered bargaining chips in political manoevering of parties hostile to one another, what hope do we have?

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 10/25/2008 7:19:01 AM >

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 8:12:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		LE, women in N. Ireland are paying the price for devolution. If you want real democratic local government this sort of thing is going to happen. For all the hatred and mistrust between the Catholics and protestants, on the subject of abortion they agree and that is it should be outlawed (pity they can't agree that murdering each other is worse than abortion).

So the women of N Ireland have to do what their neighours in the Republic of Ireland have to do, travel to England to excercise their right over their own bodies. How ironic!

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 9:14:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		And once again, women's wombs become pawns in the politics of men.

PS: progress is slow: one step forward, two steps back.


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 10/25/2008 9:30:47 AM >

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 9:29:07 AM   
Moloch


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Status: offline 		Wow, yes breeding good must breed more... 

This reminds me of NAS song:
Y'all don't treat women fair
She read about herself in the bible
Believing she the reason sin is here
You played her, with an apron
Like, "Bring me my dinner, dear."
She the nigger here
Ain't we in the free world?

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 9:34:33 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I think something like over 6,000 Irish women from both sides of the border travel over to the United Kingdom each year. When the Catholic church lifts its grip from Irish politics things might change. 

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 9:48:27 AM   
Moloch


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Status: offline 		So North Ireland how many people that live there are English? How many people that live there are Irish?

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 10:10:11 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		How is this relevant? People who are born in Ulster have British citizenship, but somehow Ulster women have different rights from their other British counterparts - which is the point of LadyE's thread, I think. 

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 10:13:33 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch
So North Ireland how many people that live there are English? How many people that live there are Irish?


That's funny. Was that a serious way of accounting for the numbers?

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 12:28:10 PM   
Moloch


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Status: offline 		Just curious.

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 12:36:31 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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More English people live in Spain than Northern Ireland. On the other hand quite a few British people live in Northern Ireland. Although the official title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, this doesn't prohibit the people in Northern Ireland from referring to themselves as British if they so wish and many don't I understand. There is no such things as an English-Irishman or Englirishmen.

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 12:37:32 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

So North Ireland how many people that live there are English? How many people that live there are Irish?


.........the majority of the settlers in Ulster than came from the mainland were Scottish, not English. However, that was several generations ago......not sure how useful it is to define things in that way. 

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 12:43:12 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I don't see what the big deal is.  I have always thought that abortion should be an issue that is left up to the states in this country.  It just seems like that line of thinking (at least on this issue) prevails in the UK.  I've always thought that laws governing certain aspects of living should be left up to the standards of the community. 

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 12:50:40 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		~FR~

Everytime I see abortion rise to the level of national politics, I think of the little old lady in Carlin's "Seven Words You Can't Say on TV":

"I don't mind shit and fuck, but p & c are out!"

To decide on the direction of a country based on only this is sad. A religious issue? Fine---but is God so impotent?

It's an arbitrary dig, not a position.

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:09:31 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I don't see what the big deal is.  I have always thought that abortion should be an issue that is left up to the states in this country.  It just seems like that line of thinking (at least on this issue) prevails in the UK.  I've always thought that laws governing certain aspects of living should be left up to the standards of the community. 


The United Kingdom isn't a federation of states, - THAT is the big deal, slaveboy (and, the world doesn't revolve around the USA anymore). A female citizen of Ulster is a British citizen, yet she doesn't have the same right to an abortion as a British woman from mainland England - and she has to travel for the privilege. You think it's not a big deal because it doesn't concern you directly. It's disgusting that women's wombs are still being used as a means to obtain political gains anywhere.


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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:29:38 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

The United Kingdom isn't a federation of states, - THAT is the big deal, slaveboy (and, the world doesn't revolve around the USA anymore). A female citizen of Ulster is a British citizen, yet she doesn't have the same right to an abortion as a British woman from mainland England - and she has to travel for the privilege. You think it's not a big deal because it doesn't concern you directly. It's disgusting that women's wombs are still being used as a means to obtain political gains anywhere.


Kittin, I am aware that the UK is not a federation of states (give me a little credit).  I am also aware that the world doesn't revolve around the US; we seem to have more liberal abortion laws than most western countries.  But the UK is a unitary state made up four countries, each with differing laws.  If the majority of people in Northern Ireland don't want abortion, than I don't see the problem with them deciding that for themselves.  We don't have that option here, because it's a was adjudicated a matter of Constitutional rights (wrongly in my opinion.) 

No it doesn't concern me directly; I don't live in Northern Ireland.  If you're saying abortion laws don't affect me due to being a man....well, that's just bogus.  Abortion is an issue that affects society as a whole. 

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:36:17 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I don't see what the big deal is.  I have always thought that abortion should be an issue that is left up to the states in this country.  It just seems like that line of thinking (at least on this issue) prevails in the UK.  I've always thought that laws governing certain aspects of living should be left up to the standards of the community. 


The big deal is that these guys thought it in any way appropriate to strike a deal with their political adversaries, to
a) detain citizens without charge for 42 days, and
b) deny women in NI the same rights as other British citizens

I just dont understand how any of them have the gall to as much as think about such dealings, let alone follow through on them

And then they tell us that we have nothing to fear from the police state they are slowly building around us

E

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:40:37 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
.  But the UK is a unitary state made up four countries, each with differing laws.  If the majority of people in Northern Ireland don't want abortion, than I don't see the problem with them deciding that for themselves.  We don't have that option here, because it's a was adjudicated a matter of Constitutional rights (wrongly in my opinion.) 



The point was, this was a debate in the UK Parliament, not at the NI Assembly. The Ulster Unionist votes were used to buy off this debate because of their support in the UK Parliament to detain citizens without charge for 42 days.

Whilst there is devolution, there is not devolution on all matters. The UK Parliament is still supreme where it is thought needful, and NI was governed from Westminster and the UK Parliament during the troubles.

E

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:41:05 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		You mean you are shocked by political negotiations? That one would give support for an issue they don't care about to gain support for an issue they do?

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:45:33 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Oh I realise negotiations take place to get things done.

But these I'm afraid are not suitable bargaining chips - how about I get Ulster Unionist support for the death penalty in return for keeping abortion off the table in NI?

Matters of consience should be a free vote on every occasion if we're to have this sort of politicking.

E

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RE: abortion, 42 days and the suppression of liberty - 10/25/2008 1:51:47 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		I think they were quite politically savvy especially when you consider the law lords were never going to be able to reconcile the 42 day thing with the larger European human rights laws. They knew this law would never be passed so it was kind of a silly move by those that asked for support to get it through the house of commons. I blame the PM for being stupid and giving away ground for nothing.

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