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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 4:52:13 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I see.

So abortion is OK as long as it is not govenment-sanctioned.

Which then brings the question that if it is not government-sanctioned does that mean illegal?  Does not illegal mean that government is still making the choice? 

So then I guess it is OK for it to be government controlled as long as it is controlled in the way that you approve of. 


I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. Government control and government sanction are two different things, and in this case they are polar opposites.



I'm not asking anything.  I'm pointing out the contradiction in your argument.

Governmental sanction means government has the authority to control what they are sanctioning.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:03:51 PM   
Owner59


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After one of the debates I saw a young voter who called himself a pro-Obama Catholic,explaining that he was against abortion and that under democrat presidents,rates and numbers of abortions go down.And that under republican presidents,the number of abortions increased.

And he`s correct about that.

And for that young man,it was reason enough to vote dem.

Those that use inflammatory words like infanticide aren`t really interested in lowering/ending abortion.If the were,they(fundie types) would support contraception,morning-after pills,sex-ed,etc.

They are interested in out-lawing it.

Single un-wed moms,unwanteds and orphans get little attention,other than scorn.

They are more interested in increasing dangerous illegal back-alley/back-room abortions then they are in lowering them.

They are more interested in a political victory than they are in the welfare of unwanteds.

Great post,philo.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/27/2008 5:07:49 PM >

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:07:04 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

Those that use inflammatory words like infanticide aren`t really interested in lowering/ending abortion.If the were,they(fundie types) would support contraception,morning-after pills,sex-ed,etc.


The word is feticide. Killing of a fetus. Not infanticide, which is killing of an infant.

Also did you just call me a fundie type? I'm interested to hear what religion I'm a fundamentalist of.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:11:48 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Some choices, such as infanticide (which is what abortion-on-demand is when all the politically correct, self-indulgent, and basically foolish rationalizations are stripped away), are simply wrong.

Christianity has nothing to do with it. Abortion-on-demand is a wrong choice.

I couldn't tell you just how many times I've heard that we have "abortion on demand" in the US.  We don't.  Roe v. Wade set up the trimester system where elective abortions are not legal in the third trimester, unless the mother's life is in danger.

Back in the day, a woman having a miscarriage was assumed to have attempted an abortion (according to doctors in practise at the time.)

As a side note, too often "pro-life" means "pro-life until birth"; ineffictive birth control instruction, underfunded child care, and excoriating women who take AFDC, etc.

If you think that they should've used birth control, how long do you think it took doctors to realize all the common medications that cause the pill to fail?  Why were condoms sold behind the counter? If you really want to see abortions stop, for crying out loud, do all you can (from multiple approaches) to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

thornhappy

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:13:50 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think it's just a matter of protecting the life of every individual...

There remains the detail that a fetus is not an individual.
 
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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:21:41 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think it's just a matter of protecting the life of every individual...

There remains the detail that a fetus is not an individual.
 
K.
 
 
 
 


A fetus is an individual. It's a collection of living cells with unique DNA. I used that word specifically, because people often debate whether a living collection of cells with unique DNA is "a life" or has "a soul" and that tends to muddy the issue.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:25:32 PM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		a fetus is incapable of sustaining itself outside of the womb until fairly late in the gestational period.  It's symbiotic.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:28:52 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Ignoring the theological stuffing



.....nice side step. My post was purely about the theology of the situation. So that those who call themselves Christian, in my opinion, should not agitate to have abortion made illegal...as that's against the theology of Christianity. Read more carefully.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:30:52 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making


....so i take it you'd support abortion by suicide...or coat hanger. Do you ever stop and read what you write?

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:31:43 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Because being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-death.

Yes it does.


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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:32:52 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If you really want to see abortions stop, for crying out loud, do all you can (from multiple approaches) to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

I agree.


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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:36:02 PM   
faithbunny


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Status: offline 		Elisabella and celticlord,

Since you believe abortion should be illegal, what do you propose as a solution to the increase in unwanted children which would be the result? According to adopt.org, there are more than 134,000 children in the US waiting to be adopted as it is.

~faith

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:38:25 PM   
Darias


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Status: offline 		Im looking at this as a mainly american  discussion , seeing as roe v wade was quoted above among other things.

my question is this. if my dodgey classes on american goverment in school were right then america works on a system of the seperation of church and state right?

so setting theology and religion from all avenues aside... any  abortion legislation must im sure efringe on one of those freedoms in the good ole constitution.. yes ? no?

just curious mainly because my little country tends to look to you lot and the brits when it comes to earth shattering laws and this is a doozy


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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:39:53 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		Oh boy, Philosophy... it's not enough for you to open a can of worms, huh? No, you got to open a barrel of worms – worms with teeth and stingers and an angry disposition.

I have to reject your contention that to be pro-life is to be anti-Christian simply because I reject the premise that the God of the Bible grants us free will. Sure, he says that we have the free will to choose but then He informs us that if we don’t choose exactly as He wants, He will burn us in agony forever. That’s like pouring gasoline on somebody then holding a lighted match near them and telling them they are free to choose between A or B but if they don’t choose A then you’re tossing the match on them. A choice made under duress is no choice at all.

As for myself I am both pro-life and pro-choice. I am pro-life in the sense that I don’t like the idea of abortion. An innocent is being destroyed and no amount of rhetoric can obfuscate that. But that’s personal. Politically, I am pro-choice because one of my core philosophical beliefs is that it is easy to have high moral principles so long as the consequences don’t affect you. There is also a pragmatic aspect to it – ultimately, people are going to do what people are going to do no matter what legislation is passed. You can ban cigarettes but people will still smoke. You can ban alcohol but people will still drink (as we have seen with that dismal failure of social engineering – prohibition). You can ban abortion but women will still seek out abortions – but it will be in situations that are more dangerous than need be.

For the record, I do think that Roe Vs. Wade should be overturned – due to the simple fact that it is bad Constitutional law and a violation of the Tenth Amendment. Abortion is properly a matter for the individual States to decide. If a more liberal state want to have abortion on demand that is their choice, and if a more conservative state wants to ban abortion outright then that too is their right.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:40:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

A fetus is an individual.

Only metaphorically. Every fetus is unique and, after all, we are not talking about any fetus. We are talking about a human fetus. But it is neither capable of independent existence, nor a member of a compound organism or colony.
 
K.
 
 
 

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:41:51 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Because being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-death.

Yes it does.



Bullshit: I love life.

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:43:15 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darias


just curious mainly because my little country tends to look to you lot and the brits when it comes to earth shattering laws and this is a doozy



There's your first problem.

Whatever gave you the idea we know what the hell we're doing?




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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:45:01 PM   
Darias


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From: midlands ireland
Status: offline 		*snickers* i figured any goverment that could inspire an awesome show like the west wing must have this whole ruling thing licked

As for my goverment taking legislation hints from your copybook... personally i think they are unimaginative and lazy but thats just me


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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:45:02 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Next thing you know, they'll start crying for gun rights, property rights, and the right to vote, for those individual fetuses  .

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RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian - 10/27/2008 5:45:19 PM   
GreedyTop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Because being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-death.

Yes it does.


No, it doesnt.

Being pro-choice does NOT mean that I would abort. Nor does it mean that I consider it a suitable substitute for birth control and sex education beyond the abstinence stance.  It does not mean that I think that it should be the first option in the event of pregnancy..

I *do*, however, think that the choice should be there, and if it is to be done it should be done in a clean, sterile, SAFE environment, by licensed medical practioners.

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