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ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Being pro-life means that you think the secular government shouldn't sanction feticide.

There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

I was going to stay out of this, I really was..but..you got me.

Yes women have taken ergot and other poisons for centuries to terminate a pregnancy. Know what it is called? Abortion.  It fact it is what the word was coined to cover..the taking of poisons to abort an infant at ANY STAGE. Sometimes it worked..Sometimes the Mother and Baby died, sometimes the baby was born and left out to die in the weather, snow, sleet, balmy summer eve, torrential rain, eaten by rats, dogs, pecked to death by crows..bye bye. THAT is a much crueler death in my opinion.

There are very few women who waltz into a clinic and have an abortion like they are going to have their nails or hair done.It is an agonizing choice that leaves scars on your heart and mind like nothing else can. At 55 I still hurt over the abortion that was ordered for me to rid me of my fathers "gift". Worse however would have been bringing it into the world..severely handicapped children weren't adopted back in those days and there was no way I could have cared for it and I would have killed to keep it away from my parents. What they did to me was bad enough.

Everyone has a right to life, but one would hope it would be a good life. Not one of starvation, torture, beating, drug addiction, abuse. So many have latched onto the "socialism" supposedly in the current campaign, but consider if you will..every UM that is born UNWANTED and abandoned to the foster care system will have have its care paid for, is an Um who will grow up on your dime, need medicaid, food, clothing, education housing all paid for by your taxes. There are just not enough Foster Homes, Adoptive parents and there is no way to force someone to take care of their own Um if it is unwanted. Few are the women who would be able to look at an Um who was the product of Rape, Incest, Abuse and hold them tight. I know in my tender years I could not have.

I don't agree with abortion as a means of birth control, but I support a woman's right to her body and to her right to make choices, even the hard ones. No one else knows if she is able to handle a child, and there are too many unwanted children already in this world.. Maybe some of the right to lifers should adopt all of them, before demanding that more are brought into the world unloved and unwanted. Better a quick death before birth than a slow torturous one afterward. We have too many children tortured to death yearly as it is by parents who don't want them.

poenkitten

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Bullshit! I love life.
 

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

People jump on the abortion bandwagon for political reasons - they don't typically give a flying duck's fuck about it, and their moral indignation is usually faked. Abortion is a handy tool for monopolising all sorts of anti-progressive segments of society: same with creationism and any other 'important issue' that the right likes to bandy about to make their point.  

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i've been saving this post for a while.......however, as we now have a poster who characterises abortion as stab stab sucky suck, and calls it feticide i figure it's time.

Pro-life people are anti-Christian. That's the hypothesis. Let me explain.

Way back in the Garden of Eden, God placed the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge there and told Adam and Eve to leave them alone. Why? Why put them where Adam and Eve could get to them? i mean, God has the whole of creation to play with....so why put them where Adam and Eve can even get close? There's only one possible explanation that jibes with God not being an utter bastard. Free Will.
God doesn't want people to follow because they have no choice. He doesn't want people to worship Him blindly. It has to be a decision. There has to be Free Will.
Now the pro-life position, as it applies to changing legislation, removes choice. Removes the element of free will from the equation. That position seeks to do something that God Himself forebore to do. Remove the element of choice. This is clearly hubris.
Thus, my hypothesis runs, those that seek to change legislation to make abortion illegal are anti-Christian. They have forgotten the first principle.......free will.

Discuss

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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Since you believe abortion should be illegal, what do you propose as a solution to the increase in unwanted children which would be the result? According to adopt.org, there are more than 134,000 children in the US waiting to be adopted as it is.

Fix the adoption process.  Prospective adoptive parents often wait years.  The whole process is a mess from start to finish; it's costly, inefficient, and ineffective.

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When all the pro-lifers agree to take in and provide sustenance and love and an education to every unwanted child then I will become a pro-lifer.
Until you've worked at childrens home or ranch and witnessed first hand the ugly cruelty of what really happens to children who were not wanted then all your moralizing is nothing but lip service.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella
But if ANY of those children, myself included, thought that we would have been better off aborted we would have committed suicide. It's pretty shitty to tell anyone, much less a child, that their life is so horrible they would be better off dead.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Pro-life doesn't remove choice, it removes one single choice.  There are still other choices.

i made sure to point out my hypothesis applied strictly to those Pro-Lifers who seek to change legislation. The choice involved is, at the first part of the decision tree, binary. Abortion or continue with the pregnancy.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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When all the pro-lifers agree to take in and provide sustenance and love and an education to every unwanted child then I will become a pro-lifer.
Until you've worked at childrens home or ranch and witnessed first hand the ugly cruelty of what really happens to children who were not wanted then all your moralizing is nothing but lip service.

1. I don't think murdering homeless people should be legal, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go out and buy them a condo.

2. I've LIVED in multiple "childrens homes" and it is pretty shitty there. But if ANY of those children, myself included, thought that we would have been better off aborted we would have committed suicide. It's pretty shitty to tell anyone, much less a child, that their life is so horrible they would be better off dead.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella
But if ANY of those children, myself included, thought that we would have been better off aborted we would have committed suicide. It's pretty shitty to tell anyone, much less a child, that their life is so horrible they would be better off dead.

Sorry, it's not about you or the other sprogs, it's about the mothers. Do you understand the difference, or does it bypass you completely?

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ORIGINAL: CalifChick

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Pro-life doesn't remove choice, it removes one single choice.  There are still other choices.

i made sure to point out my hypothesis applied strictly to those Pro-Lifers who seek to change legislation. The choice involved is, at the first part of the decision tree, binary. Abortion or continue with the pregnancy.

I'm sorry that nobody, as far as I can see, addressed your OP about removing free will.  I had a feeling that would happen.  As soon as the word "abortion" is introduced, it doesn't seem to matter what the question is, it becomes a pro-choice vs. pro-life free-for-all.

What I meant was, changing legislation does not remove free will.  It only removes one choice, not all choices.  I don't see it as the binary tree that you describe.

When you remove all choices, then I see you removing free will.


Cali

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I'm sorry that nobody, as far as I can see, addressed your OP about removing free will. 

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There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Women have done that for millenia. In fact, a pennyroyal concoction is a bit more dangerous, and really presses home the gravity of the choice you're making - kinda like being kicked out of a garden with no security. If you're following that analogy, that is.

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Ok, CL.. so what you're saying... outlaw abortion.