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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:10:17 AM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

MadRabbit - have you looked at other countries' legislation on the matter? I feel you're jumping the gun on a principle without reflecting on the possibilities that might allow for progress without hindering your freedoms. Have you ever been Jewish in a country where neo-nazis groups try to intimidate students in their own universities?  I was bloody thankful for the laws that protected my freedom and my right to exist away from insults and threats of violence. 
K-dog (may I call you K-dog), you are exactly right on this issue.  These issues, and in particular, issues of free speech are very new ideas and they are definately NOT agreed upon in the western world (where the ideas originated).  There is an entire library of philosophy regarding freedom of speech within society.  That is important to remember in these discussion. 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:11:45 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Why kdog ? I don't like dogs. German shepards and all that crap, you know? 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:12:15 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		Well such thoughts don't hurt. But if you would tell me daily....it would

But what are thoughts and opinions....where does it stop.


ps my remark was about freedom of speech and censorship
not so much about thoughts only...but just poiting out there is more..a middle way


< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/30/2008 9:14:16 AM >

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:14:13 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I think it's a cultural divide - Europeans and Americans tend to disagree strongly on this issue. 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:15:06 AM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		I think so too


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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:24:53 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

MadRabbit - have you looked at other countries' legislation on the matter? I feel you're jumping the gun on a principle without reflecting on the possibilities that might allow for progress without hindering your freedoms. Have you ever been Jewish in a country where neo-nazis groups try to intimidate students in their own universities?  I was bloody thankful for the laws that protected my freedom and my right to exist away from insults and threats of violence. 


I don't decide principles on whether or not I dislike something or not.

I don't like what the neo-nazis express and do.

I don't like the pro-life demonstraters outside of abortion clincis berating and protesting mothers who go there.

I don't like the stories of homosexual couples being told they should move out of a neighborhood because they are not wanted.

I don't like being insulted and told how I am undermining the feminist movement as a male dominant.

I don't like being told how I am a sick freak when I have mentioned publicly I have inclinations towards S/M.

But unfortanely, I live in a world where people have different opinions and beliefs then me and as much as I disagree with them and don't like them, they are still doing what they think is right and expressing what they belief.

I rather live in a world where people can express those as long as it doesn't come down to actions of violence, then a world where they are censored.

I would rather be insulted and opposed for who I am and my actions and what I believe in then live in a society where people can't express what they believe in because it's in friction with myself.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:27:52 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

MadRabbit - have you looked at other countries' legislation on the matter? I feel you're jumping the gun on a principle without reflecting on the possibilities that might allow for progress without hindering your freedoms. Have you ever been Jewish in a country where neo-nazis groups try to intimidate students in their own universities?  I was bloody thankful for the laws that protected my freedom and my right to exist away from insults and threats of violence. 
K-dog (may I call you K-dog), you are exactly right on this issue.  These issues, and in particular, issues of free speech are very new ideas and they are definately NOT agreed upon in the western world (where the ideas originated).  There is an entire library of philosophy regarding freedom of speech within society.  That is important to remember in these discussion. 


Right according to you. Wrong according to me.

And even though, I think your wrong, I welcome you to have your place in the world and don't hope that you die of natural causes soon so that people who disagree with me are extinct.

Edited to Add : I think it's important for this discussion to keep in mind that it's not tolerance if your only tolerant of things you agree with or like as you seem to be giveeverything.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/30/2008 9:29:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:29:30 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Perhaps it's the spectre of the gas chambers that had European legislators twitching: sometimes, a word is a direct threat of violence. Free speech doesn't have to be all or nothing, but it seems you are stuck on a slightly demagogic dichotomy that free speech has to mean an individual or a group should be able to be directly hateful and violent to be absolute. And I disagree with you, but so far, in this country, you have your way. So... enjoy :-).

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:31:35 AM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

MadRabbit - have you looked at other countries' legislation on the matter? I feel you're jumping the gun on a principle without reflecting on the possibilities that might allow for progress without hindering your freedoms. Have you ever been Jewish in a country where neo-nazis groups try to intimidate students in their own universities?  I was bloody thankful for the laws that protected my freedom and my right to exist away from insults and threats of violence. 
K-dog (may I call you K-dog), you are exactly right on this issue.  These issues, and in particular, issues of free speech are very new ideas and they are definately NOT agreed upon in the western world (where the ideas originated).  There is an entire library of philosophy regarding freedom of speech within society.  That is important to remember in these discussion. 


Right according to you. Wrong according to me.

And even though, I think your wrong, I welcome you to have your place in the world and don't hope that you die of natural causes soon so that people who disagree with me are extinct.

Edited to Add : I think it's important for this discussion to keep in mind that it's not tolerance if your only tolerant of things you agree with or like as you seem to be giveeverything.
I'm wrong that other countries have differeing opinions about this?  I don't think so.  Sounds like you either misunderstood or understood what you wanted to.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:38:00 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
I'm wrong that other countries have differeing opinions about this?  I don't think so.  Sounds like you either misunderstood or understood what you wanted to.


Geez, I take a moment to tell you that I don't wish you would die off despite the fact that you wish I would and this is what I get in return....



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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:39:20 AM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
I'm wrong that other countries have differeing opinions about this?  I don't think so.  Sounds like you either misunderstood or understood what you wanted to.


Geez, I take a moment to tell you that I don't wish you would die off despite the fact that you wish I would and this is what I get in return....


naw... just pointin' it out.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:43:06 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
I'm wrong that other countries have differeing opinions about this?  I don't think so.  Sounds like you either misunderstood or understood what you wanted to.


Geez, I take a moment to tell you that I don't wish you would die off despite the fact that you wish I would and this is what I get in return....


naw... just pointin' it out.


Aww, well that case, in order to clarify (since your all about understanding opinions and viewpoints behind your own as demonstrated in this thread), I was referencing solely the statement where you commented KittenSol was exactly right on this issue. Issue, of course, read by me to mean the issue at hand and not the issue of differing opinions of countries.

Miscommunication cleared up?

Still buddies?

Oh wait, we can't be buddies. You wish I would die off because I have different opinion then you.

Sighs...

So much for tolerance...

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:45:06 AM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Oh wait, we can't be buddies. You wish I would die off because I have different opinion then you.

Sighs...

So much for tolerance...
Boy, that joke of mine really got your panties in a bunch.  Believe me, you've attempted jokes that have rubbed me the wrong way but I never held them up as your only form of communication. 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:46:41 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you don't want censorship unless it is censoring speech that you find intolerable.


No, that is not what I am saying. I am trying to tentatively argue in favour of responsible free speech and of possible legal consequences for inciting violence and hatred towards others.



Who gets to define what is responsible free speech and what is irresponsible?  When you start making that distinction then aren't you by the very definition limiting free speech?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/30/2008 9:47:42 AM >

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:50:21 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Oh wait, we can't be buddies. You wish I would die off because I have different opinion then you.

Sighs...

So much for tolerance...
Boy, that joke of mine really got your panties in a bunch.  Believe me, you've attempted jokes that have rubbed me the wrong way but I never held them up as your only form of communication. 


You mean it was a joke?

Kind of like how the Barrack Obama doll could be a joke done in poor taste by some college kids....

You seem to be okay with holding their communication up to the penalty of hate crime with no consideration to the possibility of it being a joke.

In fact, when I suggested that it would could be other things besides a symbol of hate, I got told I was naive.

Luckily, I've learned from my naivety and won't be fooled by your suggestion that what you said was a joke and not what it really was which is a hate-filled speech against me for my political opinions.

Thank you for showing me the light in not following prey to the idea that interpretation doesn't always equate to motivation.

Hate monger.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:50:53 AM   
MasterVirago


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Status: offline 		It amazes me how everyone is up in arms about tougher sentences for hate crimes.
I guarantee none of it's opponents every complained about the law that gives harsher sentences for selling drugs within a mile of a school. It's still just selling drugs!
Or what about harsher sentences for vandalizing a place of worship versus any other building? It's still just vandalism.
Or what about harsher sentences for someone killing a cop versus an average joe? Murder is murder, right?

The question issues isn't "What is considered a hate crime and what is not." It takes only a minimal amount of intelligence to decipher the two in most cases. The issue is it forces us to recognize something sinister about ourselves and our communities. Each of has our own prejudices. And for all it's progress and opportunities, America is still full of people who don't like people who are different from them, whether it be race, gender, orientation, religion, financial status, geographical location, skin color, nationality, etc.

Now, was the crime a hate crime? Maybe or maybe not, the details will need to be sorted out by investigators.
Is it protected by Freedom of Speech, absolutely not. No matter how much you want it to be.

Honestly, it amazes me. How can a community of people who are considered almost more taboo than homosexuality in some area of the country, be so closed-minded and bigoted?

< Message edited by MasterVirago -- 10/30/2008 9:55:43 AM >

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:51:44 AM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Oh wait, we can't be buddies. You wish I would die off because I have different opinion then you.

Sighs...

So much for tolerance...
Boy, that joke of mine really got your panties in a bunch.  Believe me, you've attempted jokes that have rubbed me the wrong way but I never held them up as your only form of communication. 


You mean it was a joke?

Kind of like how the Barrack Obama doll could be a joke done in poor taste by some college kids....

You seem to be okay with holding their communication up to the penalty of hate crime with no consideration to the possibility of it being a joke.

In fact, when I suggested that it would could be other things besides a symbol of hate, I got told I was naive.

Luckily, I've learned from my naivety and won't be fooled by your suggestion that what you said was a joke and not what it really was which is a hate-filled speech against me for my political opinions.

Thank you for showing me the light in not following prey to the idea that interpretation doesn't always equate to motivation.

Hate monger.
You're punching out a straw man argument again, something you don't like when other people do it. 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:53:56 AM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterVirago

It amazes me how everyone is up in arms about tougher sentences for hate crimes.
I guarantee none of it's opponets every complained about the law that gives harsher sentences for selling drugs within a mile of a school. It's still just selling drugs!
Or what about harsher sentences for vandalizing a place of whorship versus any other building? It's still just vandalism.
Or what about harsher sentences for someone killing a cop versus an average joe? Murder id murder, right?

The issues isn't "What is considered a hate crime and what is not." It takes only a minimal amount of intelligence to decipher the two in most cases. The issue is it forces us to recognize something sinister about ourselves and our communites. Each of has our own prejudices. And for all it's progress and opportunities, America is still full of people who don't like people who are different from them, whether it be race, gender, orientation, religion, financial status, geographical location, skin color, nationality, etc.

Now, was the crime a hate crime? Maybe or maybe not, the details will need to be sorted out by investigators.
Is it protected by Freedom of Speech, absolutely not. No matter how much you want it to be.

Honestly, it amazes me. How can a community of people who are considered almost more taboo than homosexuality in some area of the country, be so closed-minded and bigoted?

Please do not complicate the issue with .... wait, it's a complicated issue.... d'oh.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 10:07:04 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterVirago
It amazes me how everyone is up in arms about tougher sentences for hate crimes.


I can't say I am all that amazed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterVirago
I guarantee none of it's opponents every complained about the law that gives harsher sentences for selling drugs within a mile of a school. It's still just selling drugs!


Are we attempting to equate minors with adults now and consider them both to be equal?

More specifially, are you going to reduce adults of other minorities down to the same level as children?

Because if not, then crimes involving childrens who aren't fully mature have more consequences then crimes involving adults.

The consequences of a crime committed against a white man by a white man and the consequences of the exact same crime commited against a black man by a white man are the same.

Children vs adults is not always the same unless you want to tell me that raping a little girl doesn't have the potential for far more severe psycholigical damage then raping a fulling developed and mentally mature woman.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterVirago
Or what about harsher sentences for vandalizing a place of worship versus any other building? It's still just vandalism.
Or what about harsher sentences for someone killing a cop versus an average joe? Murder is murder, right?


I'm opposed to both of these.

quote:

The question issues isn't "What is considered a hate crime and what is not."


I think that is the issue to some degree.

quote:


It takes only a minimal amount of intelligence to decipher the two in most cases.


And which hate crimes are judged off motivation, it also requires the ability to read minds as some posters in this thread seem to have.

quote:


The issue is it forces us to recognize something sinister about ourselves and our communities. Each of has our own prejudices. And for all it's progress and opportunities, America is still full of people who don't like people who are different from them, whether it be race, gender, orientation, religion, financial status, geographical location, skin color, nationality, etc.


I agree it's sinister.

I also think it's just as sinister as man's nature to kill, rape, steal and hurt for a variety of other reasons besides racial motivations.

quote:


Now, was the crime a hate crime? Maybe or maybe not, the details will need to be sorted out by investigators.


You are definiently one up on many other posters in this thread with this statement even if we disagree on the rest. High five for not jumping to conclusions.

quote:


Is it protected by Freedom of Speech, absolutely not. No matter how much you want it to be.


Could you provide facts that somehow show how this is not covered by Freedom of Speech as the judicial system currently is in this country rather than just telling me it's not?

quote:


Honestly, it amazes me. How can a community of people who are considered almost more taboo than homosexuality in some area of the country, be so closed-minded and bigoted?


Why? Because I think the death of a man should have equal value in the eyes of the law regardless of the difference of skin color and the motivations that led to that death?

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/30/2008 10:08:42 AM >

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 10:08:20 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Perhaps it's the spectre of the gas chambers that had European legislators twitching: sometimes, a word is a direct threat of violence. Free speech doesn't have to be all or nothing, but it seems you are stuck on a slightly demagogic dichotomy that free speech has to mean an individual or a group should be able to be directly hateful and violent to be absolute. And I disagree with you, but so far, in this country, you have your way. So... enjoy :-).


The trouble here is that free speech isn't all or nothing; yelling FIRE in a crowded theatre isn't protected.  Inciting riots, isn't protected.  The distinction between free expression and illegal activities lies in the immediate end result being violence.  Free speech does mean an individual or group may be as directly hateful as they wish; it does not they may be as violent (or incite violence.)

As for the opening topic, I fully agree with MR.  This thread alone demonstrates the attitudes and expectations of racism and entitlement.  I noticed that Palin's effigy hanging received barely a nod; the fact that she's a Republican is clearly the reason for this.  Obama doesn't need to be protected by this 'hate crime'; he already has the most effective (and expensive) security service in the world protecting him (the Secret Service.)  To expect that he should be treated differently, politically, because he is black, is to feed the cycle of racism. 

People will hate.  Hating, in and of itself, is not a criminal offense.  It may be morally reprehensible, it may be socially repugnant, but for good or ill we live in a country where we are permitted to express all of our emotions (love, hate, fear, joy, sorrow, boredom, contempt, etc.)  I fully and firmly believe that in my lifetime, discrimination on the basis of sex, gender, ethnicity, and (to a great extent) religion will become as venerable of a concept as personal checks.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 10/30/2008 10:24:22 AM >

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