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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 5:03:38 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"forced peace"

Sounds bushavician.


What would you call UN peacekeepers doing? Isn't that a forced peace? Your hatred for Bush is effecting your reasoning again.

quote:


And there were those who said if one supported Obama(or Hilary,or whatever) you were a _____________.Communist,socialist,elitist,pal to terrorists,etc.

Had to clarify your clarification......Orion


You actually just added to what I said, and you are correct that some did that and still do. So when it is reversed is it just as wrong? This would mean applying the same standard to both groups.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 7:08:34 PM   
ArticMaestro


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owner59, That sure is a lot of words to duck the fact that Obama has spoken on what his policy is towards the Mideast.  And it is very different than what you want to pretend it is. 

Orion, I think you are right, it's hate on his part.  Hates Bush so much he supports Hamas, and a policy of making the Palestinian people suffer, untill Isreal is eliminated.. 

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 322
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 9:32:14 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

As soon as Arabs stop sending their sons out strapped with bombs to blow up civilians, as soon as Arabs stop killing their daughters for "honor", as soon as Arabs stop marrying said daughters off at 10 to much older men, as soon as Arabs stop attacking civilians and then complaining when they get attacked back, as soon as Arabs stop killing rape victims, as soon as Arabs stop stoning women for adultry, as soon as Arabs stop hanging gays...

wait, what were you saying about Arabs being peaceful and just like us?


This is a pitched battle for their land and survival ,culturally and personally.

It`s not up to you ,me or anyone to dictate how they fight their battles or make judgments.If you or your peoples were facing the same fate,you would do what it took to save your land,home and water.They aren`t sub-human.They`re desperate.

Because you or someone else declared things are settled ,don`t mean squat.They aren`t settled for the Palestinians.

Making moral judgments that they can`t use this weapon or that tactic while the Arab/Israeli kill ratio is a hundred/one is kinda ridiculous.Almost as ridiculous as wishing for another 9/11 attack ,so one can say"I told ya so".

Don`t ya think?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/21/2009 9:33:50 PM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MissSepphora1)
Profile   Post #: 323
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 9:41:43 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Ah, I see this BS notion of proportionality has popped up again.

Here's the legal justification for Israel's present actions, which can be found here.

http://www.jcpa.org/text/puzzle1.pdf
The discussion of International law as salient. (footnotes omitted, but available via link)


"1. Distinction and Proportionality
The rule of distinction, as noted previously, requires aiming attacks only at legitimate (e.g., military and support) targets. The rule of distinction includes elements of intent and expected result: so long as one aims at legitimate targets, the rule of distinction permits the attack, even if the attack is expected to cause collateral damage to civilians and even if, in retrospect, the attack was a mistake based on faulty intelligence.

Israel has aimed its strikes at locations from which rockets have been fired, at Palestinian combatants bearing weapons and transporting arms,68 Palestinian terrorist commanders, and support and command and control centers. Locations such as Interior Ministry buildings, from which Hamas directs some military activities,71 clearly make a contribution to Hamas’ military actions; they are therefore legitimate targets, even though they also have civilian functions.
The rule of proportionality operates in conjunction with the rule of distinction to limit collateral damage. While most kinds of collateral damage to civilian and other protected targets are permitted according to the rule of distinction, the rule of proportionality forbids collateral damage that is expected to be excessive in relation to the military need. Prosecutions for war crimes on the basis of disproportionate collateral damage are rare, and it is difficult to see how a credible claim can be made that any of Israel’s counter-strikes have created disproportionate collateral damage. Certainly, there is no record of any conviction of an attacker for excessive collateral damage in attacks like those carried out by Israel. Moreover, as with distinction, the rule of proportionality relies upon intent. If Israel plans a strike without expected excessive collateral damage, the rule of proportionality justifies it, even if, in retrospect, Israel erred in its damage estimates.
...
Perfidy and Civilian Shields
At the same time, it is clear that Palestinian actions in conducting military operations from within built-up civilian areas, thereby increasing Palestinian casualties, constitute war crimes. It is important to note that Israel is not required to refrain from attacking Palestinian combatants simply because they have chosen to hide behind civilians. As Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention makes clear, the presence of civilians “may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” The
article also makes Palestinian attempts to use civilian shields unlawful.
Additionally, the fact that Palestinian terrorists dress as civilians in carrying out attacks does not render them immune from attack - it simply makes them lawful targets that are also violating international law. International humanitarian law forbids perfidy, which, for example, means that it is forbidden to feign civilian status while actually being a combatant. The fact that Palestinian terrorists often dress as and pretend to be civilians while carrying out attacks makes it highly likely that many innocent Palestinian civilians will be accidentally killed. However, the war crimes here are Palestinian, and not Israeli.
3. Retorsion and Collective Punishment
In addition to regulating directly the use of force with the rules of distinction and proportionality, international humanitarian law also provides important rules regarding military acts such as blockades and the imposition of punishment. Israel’s actions abide by these rules as well.
Israel’s imposition of economic sanctions on the Gaza Strip, such as withholding fuel supplies and electricity, does not involve the use of military force and is therefore a perfectly legal means of responding to Palestinian attacks, despite the effects on
innocent Palestinian civilians. The use of economic and other non-military sanctions as a means of disciplining other international actors for their misbehavior is a practice known as “retorsion.” It is generally acknowledged that any country may engage in retorsion. Indeed, it is acknowledged that states may even go beyond retorsion to carry out non-belligerent reprisals, non-military acts that would otherwise be illegal (such as suspending flight agreements) as counter-measures.80 Since Israel is under no legal obligation to engage in trade of fuel or anything else with the Gaza Strip, or to maintain open borders with the Gaza Strip, it may withhold commercial items and seal its borders at its discretion, even if intended as “punishment” for Palestinian terrorism.
While international law bars “collective punishment,”81 none of Israel’s combat actions and retorsions may be considered collective punishment. The bar on collective punishment forbids the imposition of criminal-type penalties on individuals or groups on the basis of another’s guilt, or the commission of acts that would otherwise violate the rules of distinction and/or proportionality.82 None of Israel’s actions involve the imposition of criminal-type penalties or the violation of the rules of distinction and proportionality. It is striking that there has never been a prosecution for the war crime of collective punishment on the basis of economic sanctions. Indeed, many of the critics calling Israel’s withdrawal of economic aid “collective punishment” call, or have called, for the imposition of economic sanctions or the withdrawal of economic aid against Israel
and other countries or, at least, claim to have “no position on [the legality of] punitive economic sanctions and boycotts.”
Examples of retorsions are legion in international affairs. The U.S., for example, froze trade with Iran after the 1979 Revolution85 and with Uganda in 1978 following accusations of genocide. In 2000, fourteen European states suspended various diplomatic relations with Austria in protest of the participation of Jorg Haider in the government. Numerous states suspended trade and diplomatic relations with South Africa as punishment for apartheid practices. In none of these cases was the charge of “collective punishment” raised. “Punishing” a country with restrictions on international trade is not identical to carrying out “collective punishment” in the legal sense."

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 324
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 11:03:07 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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A blurb from the Beeb:

:
Hamas still has enough power and influence here that few will criticise the Islamist movement openly.
But when Hamas called for a rally to celebrate what it has been calling a historic victory over the Israelis, the citizens of Gaza voted with their feet - they stayed at home.
In the past Hamas could easily call tens of thousands into the streets, but this time only party stalwarts could look around the devastation and believe this could be victory.
"I think the resistance is strong," said Beithar Ajar, 26, who described himself as a Hamas legal adviser.
"I think the Israeli army is very weak. Very weak."

Does the last line remind anyone of Baghdad Bob?

Hopefully, Ham-ass have had their nuts cut off.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 325
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 11:14:04 PM   
ArticMaestro


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It's not a moral judgment owner59.  Its a stupidity judgement on thier tactics.  Has ignorant militarism worked for them?  Has siezing power in a shootout, to use the crowded civilian areas as launching zones, worked for them?  What has it brought the people but pain and suffereing and Death?   Look at their great victory, Isreal still in Gaza, and shooting back a thier pathetic rocket launches, that are not even getting past the border...with Obama, the Gulf states, and the EU approving.  Why you are buying thier line that they won, (or even have the slightest relevance anymore) is beyond me. 

You need to face the New reality, Hamas is over.  Abbas will be taking back over there, and international troops are moving in.  Obama, the Gulf States, The EU, are all on board.  Hamas is done.  There will probably be at least one more big shootout as Hamas does its death throe,and more Palestinian civilians will suffer.  But then the Palestinains can make a new Choice, and begin building a functioning society in Gaza and the West Bank.  YES, WE CAN!

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/21/2009 11:18:29 PM   
ArticMaestro


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But to take this on a new Tangent, What exactly has been promised to the Isrealis?  The broad picture has been painted by the O, but the details...It seems like we are making a garuntee to Isreal, and taking things to a new level.     Or perhaps just Air Support, for an EU operation?  It is clear that International forces are going to run the ports and Airports for Gaza, what is our commitment to that going to be?

What if it is American Troops in Gaza?

Are we ready to get on the ground there for Peace?

(in reply to ArticMaestro)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/22/2009 4:12:14 AM   
MissSepphora1


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Okay, that covers the suicide bombing.

What about the rest of it?  Honor killings have been around since way before Israel took over that land again.

What's your excuse for that?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

As soon as Arabs stop sending their sons out strapped with bombs to blow up civilians, as soon as Arabs stop killing their daughters for "honor", as soon as Arabs stop marrying said daughters off at 10 to much older men, as soon as Arabs stop attacking civilians and then complaining when they get attacked back, as soon as Arabs stop killing rape victims, as soon as Arabs stop stoning women for adultry, as soon as Arabs stop hanging gays...

wait, what were you saying about Arabs being peaceful and just like us?


This is a pitched battle for their land and survival ,culturally and personally.

It`s not up to you ,me or anyone to dictate how they fight their battles or make judgments.If you or your peoples were facing the same fate,you would do what it took to save your land,home and water.They aren`t sub-human.They`re desperate.

Because you or someone else declared things are settled ,don`t mean squat.They aren`t settled for the Palestinians.

Making moral judgments that they can`t use this weapon or that tactic while the Arab/Israeli kill ratio is a hundred/one is kinda ridiculous.Almost as ridiculous as wishing for another 9/11 attack ,so one can say"I told ya so".

Don`t ya think?

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 328
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/22/2009 7:29:58 AM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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Looks like more excuses to continue the cycle of never ending violence.

Soon,that`ll change.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There`s no doubt that this invasion was timed and planned around our election.I find that disturbing.This is the last hurrah of unchecked aggression.

Remember the US(bush, that is)reaction to Israel raining artillery shells no Lebanon? Basically no reaction, other than give war a chance. That sent a message to the Israelis that they could do such things with impunity, under the shoe dodger`s leadership(ie. no leadership).

Mr Obama made it quite clear during the campaign and during his repudiation of neo-con policy/inauguration speech,that there will be a new approach to finding resolutions in the middle east.

Letting the Israelis do as they please while the Arabs are forced to capitulate at gun point, won`t be US policy anymore.

Making the Arabs do this or that or the other thing before we sit down with them(failed neo-con policy) is also on the way out.For those with sort memories,Obama was clear about this point during the election.He said many times and in many different ways,you make peace with your enemies,not your friends.

I suspect President Obama will disappoint everyone at the table,equally.It won`t be lopsided anymore.

There`s also going to be an honest debate,finally.

          <fun fact>
It won`t look like this debate.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/22/2009 7:32:17 AM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MissSepphora1)
Profile   Post #: 329
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/22/2009 10:34:38 AM   
ArticMaestro


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Yep because the reality is that Obama is letting Isreal comtinue to fire on positions in Gazaz...I know you declared he won't, but he is. 

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/22/2009 2:54:03 PM   
MissSepphora1


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Owner59:  I'm almost positive you don't understand how many Jews are Democrats, and how many are big contributors.  Obama may "talk the talk" really good, but there is no way on this earth a Democrat president is going to do anything other than kiss Israel's ass.

For a group of people that makes up roughly 6% of the population, there are 12 current senators who are Jewish. 31 current congressmen are Jewish.  Rahm Emmanuel, the current cheif of staff, Obama's first cabinet choice, is jewish.
If you think Israel will be politically "cut off", you should think again.

And for the record, Muslims who make up roughly  4% of the population have 1 representative in the US government.





(in reply to ArticMaestro)
Profile   Post #: 331
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/22/2009 4:13:14 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Owner59:  I'm almost positive you don't understand how many Jews are Democrats, and how many are big contributors.  Obama may "talk the talk" really good, but there is no way on this earth a Democrat president is going to do anything other than kiss Israel's ass.

For a group of people that makes up roughly 6% of the population, there are 12 current senators who are Jewish. 31 current congressmen are Jewish.  Rahm Emmanuel, the current cheif of staff, Obama's first cabinet choice, is jewish.
If you think Israel will be politically "cut off", you should think again
.

And for the record, Muslims who make up roughly  4% of the population have 1 representative in the US government.








I never really understood this, but are those that follow the Jewish faith in your government Americans first or Jewish first, if they are the latter, what are they doing in government. What comes first, faith or nation ? To me, anyone in governance of a country holds allegiance to that country first and foremost, their personal beliefs are simply that, personal, but if should a time arise that the nation is in confrontation with the personal belief, the person should in all rights step down or tow the nation line.

It could be likened to people living in a country for convienience, their home is elsewhere, they just are where they are because it suits their purpose, perhaps they amass wealth in their country of convienience, then possibly retire to the land they call home in some semblance of luxury and position by virtue of their past acchievements in another country.

To the American people, Israel and Palestine should be just other countries, much like Australia and Ireland, Chile and England, just other countries. But as a world power that has a measure of influence, wrongs being done in any country should be addressed.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/22/2009 6:16:02 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Owner59:  I'm almost positive you don't understand how many Jews are Democrats, and how many are big contributors.  Obama may "talk the talk" really good, but there is no way on this earth a Democrat president is going to do anything other than kiss Israel's ass.

For a group of people that makes up roughly 6% of the population, there are 12 current senators who are Jewish. 31 current congressmen are Jewish.  Rahm Emmanuel, the current cheif of staff, Obama's first cabinet choice, is jewish.
If you think Israel will be politically "cut off", you should think again.

And for the record, Muslims who make up roughly  4% of the population have 1 representative in the US government.







The elections over.Obama won Florida.That`s over.

And you don`t know how many Jewish people abhor what the present Israeli leadership is doing.

The guy who teaches me Krav Maga was in the Israeli military his whole adult life until he retired.He tells me that both sides have dirty hands and neither are angels.He said with so many loved ones lost on both sides,who started what and who did what becomes irrelevant.

The question in the end comes down to how many more precious lives are going to be wasted in this Mexican standoff.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MissSepphora1)
Profile   Post #: 333
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 11:36:43 AM   
KaineD


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The UN's humanitarian chief has told the BBC the situation in Gaza after a three-week Israeli offensive against Hamas was worse than he anticipated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7846625.stm


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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 2:26:28 PM   
KaineD


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Reporter tells off Israeli-spokesman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIQZ1-RFq6A&feature=related

Really harsh Channel 4 documentary on the Gaza situation.  Very informative.  I highly recommend that anyone interested in this conflict takes a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeezoWRu1FU

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 4:45:38 PM   
Coldwarrior57


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

The UN's humanitarian chief has told the BBC the situation in Gaza after a three-week Israeli offensive against Hamas was worse than he anticipated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7846625.stm



Perhaps that will teach HAMAS to LAY off Israel!
What a concept , leave her alone and she will leave others alone.
and just for the record , I do no believe Israel was savage enough.
If I would have been in charge I would have done the scortched earth policy in some areas on the pull out.


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Profile   Post #: 336
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 4:49:36 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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You mean "leave her alone * and she will leave others alone."

*to steal land and someone`s water,and get away with it.

Are aware that Isreal bombs UN buildings,personnel and trucks fairly regularly?

To them,the Israelis have hands just as dirty as the Arab`s.They don`t tend to play favorites,like bush/rice did.






< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/23/2009 4:56:27 PM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Coldwarrior57)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 5:26:03 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

The UN's humanitarian chief has told the BBC the situation in Gaza after a three-week Israeli offensive against Hamas was worse than he anticipated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7846625.stm



Perhaps that will teach HAMAS to LAY off Israel!
What a concept , leave her alone and she will leave others alone.
and just for the record , I do no believe Israel was savage enough.
If I would have been in charge I would have done the scortched earth policy in some areas on the pull out.




You're not exactly doing a great job of convincing us of your righteousness.  In fact you're sounding kind of Hitler-esque, but there ya go.  That's what happens when people go with their feelings first before consulting logic and reason.

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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 5:54:39 PM   
MissSepphora1


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I believe this says it all.  To anyone who doubted Iran is helping Hamas, this is for you.  To anyone who cries poor Palestinians, they are starving in the street, this is for you.  To anyone stating Israel has made it impossible for Palis to trade or bring anything into their country, this is for you.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482404,00.html

They have pledged $52 million of their own funds to help repair lives, the money divvied up by category. The veiled woman received compensation for her two-story home in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.
Hamas, believed to be funded by donations from the Muslim world and Iran, has promised $52 million in emergency relief. This would include $1,300 for a death in the family, $650 for an injury, $5,200 for a destroyed house and $2,600 for a damaged house, he said, adding that these are not yet compensation payments, which Hamas promises will follow.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/23/2009 6:03:29 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I believe this says it all.  To anyone who doubted Iran is helping Hamas, this is for you.  To anyone who cries poor Palestinians, they are starving in the street, this is for you.  To anyone stating Israel has made it impossible for Palis to trade or bring anything into their country, this is for you.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482404,00.html

They have pledged $52 million of their own funds to help repair lives, the money divvied up by category. The veiled woman received compensation for her two-story home in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.
Hamas, believed to be funded by donations from the Muslim world and Iran, has promised $52 million in emergency relief. This would include $1,300 for a death in the family, $650 for an injury, $5,200 for a destroyed house and $2,600 for a damaged house, he said, adding that these are not yet compensation payments, which Hamas promises will follow.


The wording of that article is strange, but not surprising seeing as its fox news.  But anyways, I'm not sure I understand your point.  You are saying "To anyone stating Israel has made it impossible for Palis to trade or bring anything into their country, this is for you."  The article states that Hamas were bringing aid, goods, and weaponry through tunnels through the Egyptian border.  So they had to sneak stuff in just to get aid to people.  I'm really not sure what your point is.  It's getting late over here though, maybe I'm tired and I'm just missing the point.

(in reply to MissSepphora1)
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