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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:16:08 AM

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There is nothing requiring Israel, under international law, to maintain open borders with a hostile territory, regardless of its sovereign status. Therefore, exercising legal counter-measures under international law does not constitute "collective punishment." (paraphrased from my previous citation)

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:21:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Israel has legal justification for every one of their actions.
http://www.jcpa.org/text/puzzle1.pdf

Over 6000 rocket attacks have been launched into Israel by the Palestinians since August 2005. EVERY SINGLE ATTACK is a war crime.

You are ignoring the valid point of the chicken and the egg. This did not start with Hamas rocket attacks. It didn't start with Israel's unlawful blockade of Gaza and Israel ignoring more UN resolutions than what Saddam Hussein ignored. And your argument that Israel had a legal justification is not correct either. It is illegal to use white phosphorus shells on civilians, and yet Israel did it anyway. No moral or legal justification for the needless suffering of civilians.

Ron Paul: Israel created Hamas.

http://brasschecktv.com/page/528.html

Ron Paul. <snicker> the famous racist "Libertarian". Okey-doke.

Not my argument, Tovarich. Shows me you didn't bother to read my citation.

being anti Israel and anti-jew is so much easier than trying to have a balanced view of the situation, isn't it?

Israel could get rid of every single weapon it owns, open every single border, disburse all of its treasury to Palestinians, and you'd still be pissing and moaning about how horrible Israel is.

You just don't have the balls to admit it.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:29:37 AM

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Did anyone know that there is a special office in the UN with the mandate to citicize Israel? That's right; their sole job is to issue one-sided reports and statements criticizing and condemning Israel without any "PROPORTIONAL" criticism of Palestinian actions.

Now, I generally favor the UN, but in this case, fuck them.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:33:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Did anyone know that there is a special office in the UN with the mandate to citicize Israel? That's right; their sole job is to issue one-sided reports and statements criticizing and condemning Israel without any "PROPORTIONAL" criticism of Palestinian actions.

Now, I generally favor the UN, but in this case, fuck them.

This is a necessity considering Israel has been able to pretty much get away with murder in regards to their relations with Palestine. Palestinian actions are already monitored and reported in the America and international media to an extent where many believe they are nothing more than irrationals trying to destroy "poor little Israel."

It is a step in the right direction, I think.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:36:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

You are ignoring the valid point of the chicken and the egg. This did not start with Hamas rocket attacks. It didn't start with Israel's unlawful blockade of Gaza and Israel ignoring more UN resolutions than what Saddam Hussein ignored. And your argument that Israel had a legal justification is not correct either. It is illegal to use white phosphorus shells on civilians, and yet Israel did it anyway. No moral or legal justification for the needless suffering of civilians.

Ron Paul: Israel created Hamas.

http://brasschecktv.com/page/528.html

Ron Paul. <snicker> the famous racist "Libertarian". Okey-doke.

Not my argument, Tovarich. Shows me you didn't bother to read my citation.

It would a while to read the whole thing, but from what I have read it is clearly a biased source.

The argument is made in your link that Palestinian rocket attacks are illegal under international law. But there is no one here that makes the argument that Hamas rocket attacks are legal or justified. It is the major difference between people that are critical of Israel and people that are supportive of Israel - people that are critical of Israel also tend to be critical of Hamas. People that are supportive of Israel tend to ignore the wrong doings of Israel and only point of the wrong doings of Palestinians. No matter how illegal the actions of Israel, no matter the condemnation Israel recieves from the UN, Red Cross, Amnesty International, and other humanitarian groups, no matter how many civilians die and are made to suffer because of Israel's actions - people like you will still support those actions. Your following assertion...

quote:

being anti Israel and anti-jew is so much easier than trying to have a balanced view of the situation, isn't it?

I am not anti-Jew. Nothing I have said in this entire thread can be construed as such and frankly a moderator should tell you off for such baseless attacks like that. It is too easy to call someone anti-Jew than actually address their argument.

And this assertion...

quote:

Israel could get rid of every single weapon it owns, open every single border, disburse all of its treasury to Palestinians, and you'd still be pissing and moaning about how horrible Israel is.

You just don't have the balls to admit it.

It's ridiculous and untrue. You know it's untrue. But we do know that you are unobjective by your own admission, and we know that you will support ANY action Israel takes on Palestinians.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:38:17 AM

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Israel used to support Hamas.

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/feb/12/00017/

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:40:55 AM

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The Specail rapporteur's mandate:
"Rapporteur's mandate:
"(a) To investigate Israel's violations of the principles and bases of international law, international humanitarian law and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967; ...(c) To report...until the end of the Israeli occupation of those territories..." (Commission on Human Rights Resolution 1993/2)

"[T]he following general criteria will be of paramount importance while nominating, selecting and appointing mandate holders: (a) expertise; (b) experience in the field of the mandate; (c) independency; (d) impartiality; (e) personal integrity; (f) objectivity". (Human Rights Council Decision 6/102 Follow-up to Human Rights Council resolution 5/1, September 27, 2007)

Term of office: May 1, 2008-

Richard Falk already holds these views on Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian (Arab-Israeli) conflict :

• Israeli actions are analogous to that of the Nazis

• Hamas is not a terrorist organization

• Israeli deaths from Palestinian "extremism" is minimal

• Israel is engaged in a holocaust-in-the-making

"Is it an irresponsible overstatement to associate the treatment of Palestinians with...criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not. The recent developments in Gaza are especially disturbing because they express so vividly a deliberate intention on the part of Israel and its allies to subject an entire human community to life-endangering conditions of utmost cruelty. The suggestion that this pattern of conduct is a holocaust-in-the-making represents a rather desperate appeal to the governments of the world and to international public opinion to act urgently to prevent these current genocidal tendencies... After winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas was castigated as a terrorist organization... In fact, the behavior and outlook of Hamas is quite different...The main weapon available to Hamas, and other Palestinian extremist elements, were Qassam missiles that resulted in producing no more than 12 Israeli deaths in six years... [T]he ratio of death and injury for the two sides in so unequal as to call into question the security logic of continuously inflicting excessive force and collective punishment on the entire beleaguered Gazan population, which is accurately regarded as the world's largest 'prison.'"(Slouching toward a Palestinian Holocaust, by Richard Falk, June 29, 2007, The Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research)
http://www.eyeontheun.org/un-authority-figures.asp?p=620

We can see just how objective Richard Falk is.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:46:25 AM

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KaineD: "But we do know that you are unobjective by your own admission, and we know that you will support ANY action Israel takes on Palestinians."

That is right. I am unobjective in that I support Israel's right to exist, and to defend herself with any means at her disposal.

Hamas has been continually attacking Israel. Israel defended herself. End of story.

Say, why don't I hear any sympathy from you Hamas lovers about the 75% of schoolkids in Sderot who are suffering from PTSD because of twice-daily Hamas rocket attacks? Or the adults? Gazans didn't have to live through those war crimes.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:47:49 AM

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If those things are based on fact, then they are objective.

Israeli actions aren't exactly analogous to that of the nazis, and Hamas is a terrorist organization.

But Israeli deaths from Palestinian attacks ARE minimal (although one death is too many).

But over the 3 week conflict there, 13 dead on the Israeli side. 10 of whom were soldiers.

Over 1, 300 dead on the Palestinian side.

And it does seem Israel has taken measures to keep Gaza in poverty.

The UN has said that Gaza is now much worse than even the conditions before the 3 week conflict, and those conditions were very poor. It would take billions just to get back to that point.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:50:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

KaineD: "But we do know that you are unobjective by your own admission, and we know that you will support ANY action Israel takes on Palestinians."

That is right. I am unobjective in that I support Israel's right to exist, and to defend herself with any means at her disposal.

Hamas has been continually attacking Israel. Israel defended herself. End of story.

That's not the end of the story and you know it.

You really need a big, hard look in the mirror. You've got way too much bitterness and its completely clouded your judgement. Your attitude is the attitude that fueled the Troubles in Ireland for 30 years. It's ugly. It's emotive and lacking in logic and reason, and willfully ignorant of facts.

And again with the assertion that we're Hamas lovers. How many times do I have to personally criticize Hamas before you get it?

< Message edited by KaineD -- 1/24/2009 4:52:34 AM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:51:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

It would a while to read the whole thing, but from what I have read it is clearly a biased source.

In other words it doesn't agree with what your saying so it must be biased.

I am not anti-Jew. Nothing I have said in this entire thread can be construed as such and frankly a moderator should tell you off for such baseless attacks like that. It is too easy to call someone anti-Jew than actually address their argument.
Your posts speak for themselves.

And this assertion...

quote:

Israel could get rid of every single weapon it owns, open every single border, disburse all of its treasury to Palestinians, and you'd still be pissing and moaning about how horrible Israel is.

You just don't have the balls to admit it.

It's ridiculous and untrue. You know it's untrue. But we do know that you are unobjective by your own admission, and we know that you will support ANY action Israel takes on Palestinians.

Yes, I would have to agree this is ridiculous....if Israel got rid of all their weapons, they would all be killed. Of course you would still be pissing and moaning, you would just have to find a new subject.

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(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:55:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

It would a while to read the whole thing, but from what I have read it is clearly a biased source.

In other words it doesn't agree with what your saying so it must be biased.

I am not anti-Jew. Nothing I have said in this entire thread can be construed as such and frankly a moderator should tell you off for such baseless attacks like that. It is too easy to call someone anti-Jew than actually address their argument.
Your posts speak for themselves.

And this assertion...

quote:

Israel could get rid of every single weapon it owns, open every single border, disburse all of its treasury to Palestinians, and you'd still be pissing and moaning about how horrible Israel is.

You just don't have the balls to admit it.

It's ridiculous and untrue. You know it's untrue. But we do know that you are unobjective by your own admission, and we know that you will support ANY action Israel takes on Palestinians.

Yes, I would have to agree this is ridiculous....if Israel got rid of all their weapons, they would all be killed. Of course you would still be pissing and moaning, you would just have to find a new subject.

It's biased because of its wording, its clearly an article that sets about trying to prove why Israel is right and why the UN and Amnesty International and everyone else is wrong.

Show me where I have been anti-Jewish.

If Israel got rid of their weapons, Hamas would not have the means to destroy Israel. If Hamas got rid of their weapons, the conditions of Gaza would remain the same.

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 4:58:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

If those things are based on fact, then they are objective.

Israeli actions aren't exactly analogous to that of the nazis, and Hamas is a terrorist organization.

But Israeli deaths from Palestinian attacks ARE minimal (although one death is too many).

But over the 3 week conflict there, 13 dead on the Israeli side. 10 of whom were soldiers.

Over 1, 300 dead on the Palestinian side.

And it does seem Israel has taken measures to keep Gaza in poverty.

The UN has said that Gaza is now much worse than even the conditions before the 3 week conflict, and those conditions were very poor. It would take billions just to get back to that point.

I gave you a very well-reasoned, researched, and annotated legal justification for Israel's actions under international law.

Your response? "biased". Well, of course it is. It is a legal argument. You don't expect a claimant to support the other side in a civil courtroom, do you? That means you cannot refute any of the legal arguments the authors make, you can only dismiss it as "biased".

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 5:01:23 AM

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

The Specail rapporteur's mandate:
"Rapporteur's mandate:
"(a) To investigate Israel's violations of the principles and bases of international law, international humanitarian law and the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967; ...(c) To report...until the end of the Israeli occupation of those territories..." (Commission on Human Rights Resolution 1993/2)

"[T]he following general criteria will be of paramount importance while nominating, selecting and appointing mandate holders: (a) expertise; (b) experience in the field of the mandate; (c) independency; (d) impartiality; (e) personal integrity; (f) objectivity". (Human Rights Council Decision 6/102 Follow-up to Human Rights Council resolution 5/1, September 27, 2007)

Term of office: May 1, 2008-

Richard Falk already holds these views on Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian (Arab-Israeli) conflict :

• Israeli actions are analogous to that of the Nazis

This is a stretch indeed, however one has to beg the question why Israel feels it is more "entitled" to land that belongs to another set of people? Isn't this called imperialism in any other case? Isn't this something Americans have a fondness for laying on Old Europe while allowing itself and it's allies to participate in such practices? A prime example being our unwillingness to have a firm stance on the sovereignty of Taiwan? Or our own "freeing" of countries into "democracies" that foster American geo-political and economic interests above the welfare of the actual people living there?

• Hamas is not a terrorist organization

All of Hamas is NOT a terrorist organization. They are an elected party whom has spent much of their time instituting social, religious, and cultural institutions (including hospitals and school) in the Gaza strip. The militant faction of Hamas however, IS considered a terrorist organization. We cannot however, throw the baby out with the bath water, if the main governing faction of Hamas is willing to work with Israel then a compromise can be reached. We just don't want to because it's easier to label them all as terrorists thereby making atrocities against the people and disregard for the government and international law a bit more tolerable to the masses.

• Israeli deaths from Palestinian "extremism" is minimal

• Israel is engaged in a holocaust-in-the-making

Connecting Israel to another Holocaust is a bad move. One already cannot discuss Israeli policies without being labeled Anti-Semitic and the Holocaust is already used as a reminder of why they should be able to get away with anything they want for the rest of history. Maybe this is why we're still so closely tied with China...we feel bad about the Rape of Nanking...but I highly doubt that.

The problem with this situation is that most of the people who "claim" they are objective are heavily swayed to one side or the other. I feel most Americans/Westerners support Israel for religious reasons above anything else. Some support all of their actions out of guilt, and yet others support Israel because in their mind Muslims that won't take crap lying down= terrorist.

What I do know, is that this is something that needs to be resolved and I think giving Palestine it's desire of national borders it has previouly recognized is not a far stretch or even an unfair "demand." We certainly didn't give the prior occupants much say in the matter when they were booted from their homes during the founding of Israel. *shrug*

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 5:13:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

If those things are based on fact, then they are objective.

Israeli actions aren't exactly analogous to that of the nazis, and Hamas is a terrorist organization.

But Israeli deaths from Palestinian attacks ARE minimal (although one death is too many).

But over the 3 week conflict there, 13 dead on the Israeli side. 10 of whom were soldiers.

Over 1, 300 dead on the Palestinian side.

And it does seem Israel has taken measures to keep Gaza in poverty.

The UN has said that Gaza is now much worse than even the conditions before the 3 week conflict, and those conditions were very poor. It would take billions just to get back to that point.

I gave you a very well-reasoned, researched, and annotated legal justification for Israel's actions under international law.

Your response? "biased". Well, of course it is. It is a legal argument. You don't expect a claimant to support the other side in a civil courtroom, do you? That means you cannot refute any of the legal arguments the authors make, you can only dismiss it as "biased".

It's in the wording of the article. As well researched as it clearly is, the entire thing is slanted in the favor of Israel. Every line of it. It emphasises the wrong doings of Hamas and downplays the actions of Israel, twisting legal definitions to justify Israeli action. I'm not sure UN legislators would agree with the article's interpretation of UN law. For example, your article uses the fact that Palestinians don't have their own state as a reason why International law doesn't apply. It uses the fact that Hamas is a terrorist group as a reason why Israel is legally obligated to prevent aid into Gaza less it ends up falling into the hands of Hamas. These are all very shaky interpretations of the law, and more importantly - its morally unsound. The interpretation ignores the fact that Hamas controls the government and infrastructure of Gaza, and it ignores that Hamas were elected, so effectively a stance of complete economic and aid blockading punishes every Palestinian in Gaza. And punishing people collectively is illegal.

Not to mention the article is out of date and doesn't take into account recent events. White phosphorus shells are illegal to use in civilian areas.

I would love for you to just be able to admit that much, and admit Israel was wrong for using them.

< Message edited by KaineD -- 1/24/2009 5:15:26 AM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 5:20:15 AM

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"Stolen Lands"
" On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel. The following day five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –invaded Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[55] Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on May 11, 1949.[56] During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country.[57] The fate of the Palestinian refugees today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

FLED THE COUNTRY. How can what has been abandoned be stolen?

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to slavealani)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 5:36:11 AM

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"
ICRC: Israel's use of white phosphorus not illegalPosted by LexisNexis International Law Center Staff

GENEVA – (AP) The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally. The comments came after a human rights organization accused the Jewish state of using white phosphorus, …"http://law.lexisnexis.com/practiceareas/International--Foreign-Law-News-Headlines/International--Foreign-Law-News/ICRC-Israels-use-of-white-phosphorus-not-illegal- Now, if WP is found after an independent objective investigation to have been used as an incendiary weapon, rather than as a smokescreen, then of course Israel should be condemned. I'm not prepared to jump on the bandwagon yet, though.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 5:36:30 AM

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Like I said before, lacking logic and reason.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 6:15:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"Stolen Lands"
" On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel. The following day five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –invaded Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[55] Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on May 11, 1949.[56] During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country.[57] The fate of the Palestinian refugees today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

FLED THE COUNTRY. How can what has been abandoned be stolen?

First, this snippet omits the fact that Israel expanded it's borders past the original U.N. partitions. It also fails to mention how the mandate was placed into effect in 1922, over 20 years prior to the Arab Israeli Wars. During this time, MOST of the surrounding area of Jerusalem was populated by those of Muslim-Arabic descent.

You neglect to mention the reasons behind WHY the Arab inhabitants were not enthralled with the U.N.'s plan---which had more to do with past British imperialism and the overt actions of Zionists in the capture and colonizing of Palestine, disregard for the pre-existing occupants, and the nullifying of property rights based on a "concept" of religious entitlement. People were already living there when a Jewish state was introduced.

I am by no means saying that Israel should not exist, they have just as much a right to be there as anyone else. What I DO have a problem with is people acting as if the foundation of this theocracy is not at odds with past American actions. Israel claims to have "ancestral ties"...well a lot of people make that claim and rarely anywhere else in the world are people allowed to return to their "ancestral homeland" after a slew of people have already commenced to living there.

In regards to the refugees...isn't that a normal occurence? Refugees leave due to poor circumstances such as war/famine/ rampant disease etc. Once things are stabilized however, they either return home on their own or are GREATLY encouraged by the nation that is hosting them to return to where they came from. The problem with your logic is that you're essentially stripped the refugee of their right to return home because "finders keepers, losers weepers." That makes no sense.

That's like you fleeing your home because a hurricane is coming and then when you come back some other family is living there. You try to tell them it's your home, you paid for it, you've lived there all your life etc and they say "How can it be stolen when you left it? It's our home now!"

See?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/24/2009 6:31:20 AM

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And I'd just like to add before I get chopped up for semantics...that there is a difference between having an "ancestral claim" and having a claim based on having owned property that you are then trying to reclaim due to refugee status.

European Jews have as much an ancestral claim to Israel as I have to Africa.

Whereas were I refugee, I would still be encouraged to return to my little hovel (or some place else) in North Carolina as that is my last known residence.

(in reply to slavealani)

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