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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:37:08 AM

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

uranium depleted shells

I think the whole NATO uses those. Armour piercing rounds.

Here's a link about it.

http://www.countercurrents.org/du-shah231004.htm

While there isn’t unanimous consent about the extent of radioactive effects of DU, its use has been so controversial that the U.S and Britain are the only countries that continue to use it.[51] Most governments, including NATO governments and U.S. allies such as Germany, Canada, the Czech Republic, Norway, and the Netherlands have foresworn the use of DU weapons.[52] Most democratic governments are not willing to accept the health, environmental and the resulting political problems associated with the use of DU.[53] The U.N. Commission on Human Rights in 1996 and again in 2002 seemed to confirm these effects of DU and take a step in the direction of banning these weapons when it categorized DU as a “weapon of indiscriminate effect” and which could violate the international laws of armed conflict.[54] Unfortunately, unlike European countries, there has been relatively little discussion or debate about DU in the U.S. as the Pentagon has continuously refused to acknowledge its dangers despite numerous reports to the contrary.[55]

Here's a link about white phosphorus in the Gaza conflict.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5470047.ece

Photographic evidence has emerged that proves that Israel has been using controversial white phosphorus shells during its offensive in Gaza, despite official denials by the Israel Defence Forces.
There is also evidence that the rounds have injured Palestinian civilians, causing severe burns. The use of white phosphorus against civilians is prohibited under international law.

Basically, what all of this means, is that the IDF are not as concerned about avoiding civilian casualties as they say they are. They are using deadly chemical weapons.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:40:46 AM

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Joined: 12/8/2008
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kained, from your link, "
The Israeli army refuses to say whether it's using phosphorus, saying only it is "using its munitions in accordance with international law."
White phosphorus is not illegal. Under customary laws of war, however, Israel would be expected to take all feasible precautions to minimize the impact on civilians, Human Rights Watch said."

Why are you pretending it is illegal? Did you even read the link you posted? It just seems you must have an agenda to be posting links that disagree with what you are saying.

Unfortunatly Hamas is hiding among civilian targets, making it close to impossible to avoid civilain damage. Completely illegal under international law. Yet you don't seem to mind. The article you posted also refers to using Mosques as command centers and weopon storage areas. Again comletely illegal, and not seeming to be a problem on your part.

I find it disgusting that people support Hamas' strategy of getting as many Palestinains civilians hurt/ killed as possible.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:44:32 AM

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Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Iran warns their puppets Hamas
How does Shia Iran come to be the puppet master of Sunni Hamas? This is just all a bit silly isn't it?

Yeah, you're right. I guess they just made that whole story up.

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(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:44:38 AM

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Joined: 1/11/2008
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from your own article:

White phosphorus is not illegal. Under customary laws of war, however, Israel would be expected to take all feasible precautions to minimize the impact on civilians, Human Rights Watch said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

First I would like to know where you are getting this information. This is the only statement you didn't provide a link to.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95LL6NO0

quote:

Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of firing artillery shells packed with the incendiary agent white phosphorus over populated areas of Gaza. The chemical, used for creating smoke screens and for illuminating battlefields at night, ignites when it comes in contact with oxygen and can cause serious burns and spark fires as it drifts to the ground in long trails of smoke.
Marc Garlasco, a military analyst working for the rights organization, said he witnessed such shelling from the Gaza-Israel border last weekend. He reviewed AP Television News footage on Monday of similar midair fire that he said was white phosphorus.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80443&sectionid=351020202

Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:45:25 AM

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Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

kained, from your link, "
The Israeli army refuses to say whether it's using phosphorus, saying only it is "using its munitions in accordance with international law."
White phosphorus is not illegal. Under customary laws of war, however, Israel would be expected to take all feasible precautions to minimize the impact on civilians, Human Rights Watch said."

Why are you pretending it is illegal? Did you even read the link you posted? It just seems you must have an agenda to be posting links that disagree with what you are saying.

Unfortunatly Hamas is hiding among civilian targets, making it close to impossible to avoid civilain damage. Completely illegal under international law. Yet you don't seem to mind. The article you posted also refers to using Mosques as command centers and weopon storage areas. Again comletely illegal, and not seeming to be a problem on your part.

I find it disgusting that people support Hamas' strategy of getting as many Palestinains civilians hurt/ killed as possible.

I never stated anywhere that I agree with the actions of Hamas. They're the terrorist group. It's expected from them. Israel is supposed to be an official and diplomatic nation, but they are just as bad as Hamas.

Read the Times Online link I posted.

quote:

The shell is not defined as an incendiary weapon by the Third Protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons because its principal use is to produce smoke to protect troops. However, Marc Galasco, of Human Rights Watch, said: “Recognising the significant incidental incendiary effect that white phosphorus creates, there is great concern that Israel is failing to take all feasible steps to avoid civilian loss of life and property by using WP in densely populated urban areas. This concern is amplified given the technique evidenced in media photographs of air-bursting WP projectiles at relatively low levels, seemingly to maximise its incendiary effect.”

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:46:12 AM

vixxy

Posts: 32
Status: offline

"read your history"

Armistice - Israel and Arab states agree to armistice. Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan.

Six day war - Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal, establishment of peace.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_timeline.htm

In history no one is totally innocent in the problems that have arisen over the centuries. If neither side will attempt to obey rules put in place by the UN, this will continue forever..or until once of the parties is totally wiped out.

There are many refugee camps through the Middle East with over a million people who really have no where to go. This has been happening for decades and some have only known a whole life time of camps.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/camp-profiles.html

History has proven over thousands of years this will probably continue. The only hope is that in time both sides will be able to make concessions and it can end.

(in reply to manxcat)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:46:22 AM

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Joined: 1/11/2008
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I second this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

kained, from your link, "
The Israeli army refuses to say whether it's using phosphorus, saying only it is "using its munitions in accordance with international law."
White phosphorus is not illegal. Under customary laws of war, however, Israel would be expected to take all feasible precautions to minimize the impact on civilians, Human Rights Watch said."

Why are you pretending it is illegal? Did you even read the link you posted? It just seems you must have an agenda to be posting links that disagree with what you are saying.

Unfortunatly Hamas is hiding among civilian targets, making it close to impossible to avoid civilain damage. Completely illegal under international law. Yet you don't seem to mind. The article you posted also refers to using Mosques as command centers and weopon storage areas. Again comletely illegal, and not seeming to be a problem on your part.

I find it disgusting that people support Hamas' strategy of getting as many Palestinains civilians hurt/ killed as possible.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 10:50:41 AM

Posts: 669
Joined: 1/11/2008
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And we should ask Israel to play fair, even though Hamas does not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Basically, what all of this means, is that the IDF are not as concerned about avoiding civilian casualties as they say they are. They are using deadly chemical weapons.

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:00:58 AM

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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I don't think DU is forbidden either..."only" the effects afther use (possible health issues civilians) are against the Geneva convention.
(bad enough ofcourse)

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:06:53 AM

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Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And we should ask Israel to play fair, even though Hamas does not?

Oy...

Why would you want to hold Israel to such a low standard that you expect them to use the same tactics as terrorists?

No, sorry, worse tactics than the terrorists. There have been NO reports that Hamas are using chemical weapons. If one of Israel's goals is to avoid civilian casualties, why use chemical weapons? The IDF has more than enough weaponry without resorting to that.

If its Saddam Hussein, people can't criticise quickly enough (and rightfully) because he used chemical weapons on the Kurds. It's a human rights abuse. It's a war crime. When Israel does it, it's okay? It's sheer hypocrisy.

Every situation should be evaluated by their own merits. People shouldn't blindly support Israel. Hamas should be criticised for using rockets on innocent people, but Israel should be criticised for their economic blockade. Hamas should be criticised for extremism, but Israel should be criticised for making the Palestinians prisoners in their own land. And they should be criticised for using chemical weapons, and criticised for refusing to listen to International calls for ceasefire, as should Hamas.

Why justify actions that are unjustifiable?

(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:13:11 AM

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Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

Hamas should be criticised for using rockets on innocent people, but Israel should be criticised for their economic blockade. Hamas should be criticised for extremism, but Israel should be criticised for making the Palestinians prisoners in their own land. And they should be criticised for using chemical weapons, and criticised for refusing to listen to International calls for ceasefire, as should Hamas.

agree
where 2 fight are 2 to blame...they say here

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:22:07 AM

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Joined: 1/11/2008
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You are an idiot if you think for one second anything I have said has justified anything Israel has done. You are reading what you want to see into everyone's posts. You are beyond rational debate here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And we should ask Israel to play fair, even though Hamas does not?

Oy...

Why would you want to hold Israel to such a low standard that you expect them to use the same tactics as terrorists?

No, sorry, worse tactics than the terrorists. There have been NO reports that Hamas are using chemical weapons. If one of Israel's goals is to avoid civilian casualties, why use chemical weapons? The IDF has more than enough weaponry without resorting to that.

If its Saddam Hussein, people can't criticise quickly enough (and rightfully) because he used chemical weapons on the Kurds. It's a human rights abuse. It's a war crime. When Israel does it, it's okay? It's sheer hypocrisy.

Every situation should be evaluated by their own merits. People shouldn't blindly support Israel. Hamas should be criticised for using rockets on innocent people, but Israel should be criticised for their economic blockade. Hamas should be criticised for extremism, but Israel should be criticised for making the Palestinians prisoners in their own land. And they should be criticised for using chemical weapons, and criticised for refusing to listen to International calls for ceasefire, as should Hamas.

Why justify actions that are unjustifiable?

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:28:53 AM

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Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

You are an idiot if you think for one second anything I have said has justified anything Israel has done. You are reading what you want to see into everyone's posts. You are beyond rational debate here.

Here's your own comment.

And we should ask Israel to play fair, even though Hamas does not?

Is that question not some sort of attempt at justification?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And we should ask Israel to play fair, even though Hamas does not?

Oy...

Why would you want to hold Israel to such a low standard that you expect them to use the same tactics as terrorists?

No, sorry, worse tactics than the terrorists. There have been NO reports that Hamas are using chemical weapons. If one of Israel's goals is to avoid civilian casualties, why use chemical weapons? The IDF has more than enough weaponry without resorting to that.

If its Saddam Hussein, people can't criticise quickly enough (and rightfully) because he used chemical weapons on the Kurds. It's a human rights abuse. It's a war crime. When Israel does it, it's okay? It's sheer hypocrisy.

Every situation should be evaluated by their own merits. People shouldn't blindly support Israel. Hamas should be criticised for using rockets on innocent people, but Israel should be criticised for their economic blockade. Hamas should be criticised for extremism, but Israel should be criticised for making the Palestinians prisoners in their own land. And they should be criticised for using chemical weapons, and criticised for refusing to listen to International calls for ceasefire, as should Hamas.

Why justify actions that are unjustifiable?

(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:31:46 AM

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

Whatever, whoever started this mess, it just stinks to high heaven that journalists are prevented from entering the war zone. Like, if Israel is doing everything by the book, why do they fear journalists, the same applies, if Hamas are hiding behind women and children, surely journalists in the situation will report this fact to the world, and back Israel up on their accusations. The lack of coverage by international journalists leaves us to believe in whatever the source of information is. Who reports the Palestinian side ? Who reports the Israeli side ?

Propaganda exists in all wars, it does so in this conflict, both sides use it, but who are you more inclined to believe, and why ? But having said propaganda exists on both sides, would you be inclined to believe the truth if you heard it, or dismiss it as a case of hamming up a situation to receive a sympathy vote, does your personal beliefs affect this information.

Maybe it is the world has kept relatively silent on this because of the lack of independant information, perhaps world leaders don't know what way to turn, and fear following their own sense of what is right or wrong and there be seen to be supporting the wrong side.

Until there is independant reporting from the situation, I would be inclined to believe or disbelieve what Hamas say, and what Israel say, as there is no way to prove the truth of the situation.

Just out of interest, what if Israel had not been located in Palestine, what if the refugees from Europe had been given land elsewhere, say the US, and as this new country grew, it required more land, what would be the response of the US inhabitants, if they were falling prey to land grabs by another country ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:40:32 AM

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Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

what if Israel had not been located in Palestine

First we need an answer if Palestine is in Israel or Israel in Palestine.
Because to many the history doesn't start with the refugees out of Europe...but way earlier...for example when the first jews fled from Egypt into their promised land.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:52:49 AM

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Joined: 1/11/2008
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I just don't believe there is a fair fight as long as both sides have no rules.
And I'm not saying Israel or Palestine are right. I'm just saying there should not be set rules for one side, and not the other.
You can't excuse what Hamas does by saying, it's understandable they are doing what they do because they are terrorists. Hamas is the ruling, governing party in Gaza, and should be held to the same standards. Or there should be no standards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

You are an idiot if you think for one second anything I have said has justified anything Israel has done. You are reading what you want to see into everyone's posts. You are beyond rational debate here.

Here's your own comment.

And we should ask Israel to play fair, even though Hamas does not?

Is that question not some sort of attempt at justification?

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 11:57:58 AM

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

As I think of the situation, the Jews travelled far and wide, setting up home where they could, and there largely prospering. Europe disliked the Jews, something to do with the belief that the Jews killed Christ, many atrocities were carried out on the Jews throughout their history in their new lands, they were disliked, despised and made a scapegoat for every ill, but they were needed, as it was often their money that funded the political ventures of the elite. The western world it seemed did'nt want them, but desperately needed them. How they came to leave their homelands, is beyond my historical knowledge, but where they set up and lived for generations, I understand is their new homeland, not where they originally came from, adopt that mentality, then everyone one of us belongs somewhere else, we are false in our allegiance to the country we call home. The Jews emigrated elsewhere, as had so many other people, not of their belief.

After world war two, I understand the refugees were taken to Palestine to set up their own new country, what I fail to understand is, given the agressor has been destroyed, why these people did not go back to the country they flew from and help rebuild it and there carry on with life, why was it deemed necessary to create a new country for refugees, no one else has had this favour, no other refugees get their own country, so why these people.

I understand land was taken in the country of Palestine for this new country, people were pushed aside for this new nation, Britain, the US and I believe France were instrumental in this, but why, why this special favour for war refugees?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:11:53 PM

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I just don't believe there is a fair fight as long as both sides have no rules.
And I'm not saying Israel or Palestine are right. I'm just saying there should not be set rules for one side, and not the other.
You can't excuse what Hamas does by saying, it's understandable they are doing what they do because they are terrorists. Hamas is the ruling, governing party in Gaza, and should be held to the same standards. Or there should be no standards.

I'm in agreement with you.

(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:13:27 PM

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quote:

Europe disliked the Jews

Is it...we blame the Europeans week?

(in reply to KaineD)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:17:26 PM

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

And who caused the then civilised world, christendom, to dislike the Jews, none but the Catholic church. People might well have got along in their lives, if it were not for a higher power training the thought.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to JustDarkness)

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