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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:18:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

As I think of the situation, the Jews travelled far and wide, setting up home where they could, and there largely prospering. Europe disliked the Jews, something to do with the belief that the Jews killed Christ, many atrocities were carried out on the Jews throughout their history in their new lands, they were disliked, despised and made a scapegoat for every ill, but they were needed, as it was often their money that funded the political ventures of the elite. The western world it seemed did'nt want them, but desperately needed them. How they came to leave their homelands, is beyond my historical knowledge, but where they set up and lived for generations, I understand is their new homeland, not where they originally came from, adopt that mentality, then everyone one of us belongs somewhere else, we are false in our allegiance to the country we call home. The Jews emigrated elsewhere, as had so many other people, not of their belief.

After world war two, I understand the refugees were taken to Palestine to set up their own new country, what I fail to understand is, given the agressor has been destroyed, why these people did not go back to the country they flew from and help rebuild it and there carry on with life, why was it deemed necessary to create a new country for refugees, no one else has had this favour, no other refugees get their own country, so why these people.

I understand land was taken in the country of Palestine for this new country, people were pushed aside for this new nation, Britain, the US and I believe France were instrumental in this, but why, why this special favour for war refugees?

You're joking, right? Let's say you've been in a KZ for two years and survived dysentary, cholera, malnutrition, mistreatment up to and including torture. Everything you ever had was stolen from you LEGALLY. Most of your family and friends died or were murdered. Would YOU want to go back and live among the people who did this to you?

What are you thinking?

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(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:20:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

And who caused the then civilised world, christendom, to dislike the Jews, none but the Catholic church. People might well have got along in their lives, if it were not for a higher power training the thought.

The church is not Europe though

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:21:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

Europe disliked the Jews

Is it...we blame the Europeans week?

Well, you know, the Shoah didn't happen in Uruguay. The Inquisition didn't spontaneously spring up in Sri Lanka.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:27:06 PM

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From: Tamaris
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And before we start blaming the current Europeans, let's remember where the Americans came from, nowhere, but the same lands and ancestry, though it never was the populace that was the problem, they just got on with it as best they could. It was those in positions of power and influence that stirred the masses, perhaps the very same type of people that still manipulate the common thought.

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(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:32:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

Europe disliked the Jews

Is it...we blame the Europeans week?

Well, you know, the Shoah didn't happen in Uruguay. The Inquisition didn't spontaneously spring up in Sri Lanka.

You could have said World too...or Universe.
You can't blame a continent....you can blame persons.
With that..saying Europe...you also accuse althose who helped the jews. Ever thougth of that?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 12:49:40 PM

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I'd like to know how Norwegian medics identify Uranium isotopes in the field. Do they have Mr. Wizard portable analytical chemistry laboratories?

Here's how easy it is:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15479520?dopt=AbstractPlus

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:01:44 PM

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Would it just be possible to recoqnize the bullits used?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:31:42 PM

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The idea that Europeon Anti Semitism was soley the Nazi party ignores over a thousand years of history. The idea that it was just Catholicism also fails the test of history. The idea that it was just "christ kiler" is also foolish. The peasants need scapegoats....and the darker skinned people with larger cocks are convienent.

Which ever person was not sure why Jews left Isreal in the first place, shows an amazing lack of Historical Knowledge. A europeon empire(Rome), invaded and conquered the place. Then decided to to an extermination (in 70ad), burnt the cities, poisened the wells, and salted the fields.

But lets remeber how this thread got started.

Fasley claiming that the BBC news reports that Isreal broke the cease fire. This thread was started with an agenda driven lie. It is quite obvious that the poster got his information from sources that would be laughed at, so tried to find a few serious articles to back the point. Had to lie to get credibility to one, one a blog, and a real news article that clearly says Hamas never stopped shooting rockets (even durring the cease fire), and was engaged in a border crossing tunnel. The tunnel got a a response from Isreal, whcih ended up with 6 dead Hamas fighters (and 0 civilians). In response Hamas began a full scale rocket barage on Civilian towns.

Anyone who read the cited links in the OP can see this.

Further more,the creator of this thread has made several false claims, including a claim that Isreal uses carpet bombings.

Simply a lie. What are his motives for telling such a lie? We can only guess.

And a false claim that Isreal is using Chemical Weopons on civilians, just like Saddam Hussein. That is so freaking stupid. Saddam used VX and Sarin to kill civilians by the thousands. Isreal has done nothing of the sort. Not even remotley similar. Using phospourus to light a battlefield is not an illegal use, nor is it using a chemical weopon. That Hamas chooses the Battlefield to be civilian towns, is regrettable, but apperantly supported by the Post creator. A chemical weopon is not a weopon that has a chemical in it. Quassam rockets have chemicals in the propellant, and explosive. Can anyone really be so ignorant, they don't know that?

Since this thread was started based on lies, reason and facts will not make a dent. Nothign to do but point out the truth and let the others keep making stuff up.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:35:39 PM

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quote:

The idea that Europeon Anti Semitism was soley the Nazi party ignores over a thousand years of history. The idea that it was just Catholicism also fails the test of history. The idea that it was just "christ kiler" is also foolish. The peasants need scapegoats....and the darker skinned people with larger cocks are convienent.

no one ignores history but the people saying EUROPE hates jews.
It is easy to say Europe when you mention history..because that is what the west focus on. History to us..is Europe mostly.
I don't mind people sayin there has always been hate against jews...but I dislike to call EUROPE jew haters.

So please..name the people/groups...but not a whole continent.

btw Rome was the world..there was no Europe then
Did the romans conquer Israel because there were jews? I doubt it also.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/12/2009 1:39:21 PM >

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:45:44 PM

piratecommander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

Europe disliked the Jews

Is it...we blame the Europeans week?

It seems very much so JD , I find it quite sinister

Pirate

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:53:56 PM

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Hmm just darkness, I never said anything about Isreal being conquered by Rome because there were Jews there. Of course they didn't. Rome was out to conquer everything they could. Maybe there is confusion of language here.

Europeon governments, going back for 2000 years have had varrying degrees of official, state supported Anti Semitism. Both legal and social discrimination. The degree and forms have varried over time, but been a constant. It seems you have decided to break in the past 50 years. Of course that was decided at gunpoint. But then you see stories about police breaking into homes to steal Jewish symbols to stop violent mobs, and you realy have to wonder if the past 50 years aren't simply an aberation. The complete denial of having any link to the past by many (not all) modern Germans is rather frightening. It's like KKK deniars in the southern states of America.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:55:34 PM

piratecommander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

You are reading what you want to see into everyone's posts.

If that were the case,it would not render him alone in this debate

Pirate

(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 1:58:12 PM

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I am sorry..then I misunderstood.

I posted this once...here...It is not my opinion in anyway...just research doen on the subject;
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_so_many_people_seem_to_hate_Jews_and_Israel

ps..there are more sources then wiki. This just had an overview

quote:

complete denial of having any link to the past by many (not all) modern Germans is rather frightening.

They don't ignore it...I have German friends..many. (living close to the border).
They..the young people..jus get tired of accusations...about soemthing they can't change.
At school..they get it rubbed in...still. But it wasn't their time..their war. For many people Germans equal NAzi's and when you are German that is very painfull.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/12/2009 2:01:16 PM >

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 2:31:44 PM

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As someone born in the South I can relate. Slavery, civil war and jim Crow wan't my time either.

And being part Jewish (enough that I would have been sent to the camps under Nazi law), seeing German police tearing down Jewish symbols, is kind of painfull, also.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 2:32:23 PM

piratecommander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Hmm just darkness, I never said anything about Isreal being conquered by Rome because there were Jews there. Of course they didn't. Rome was out to conquer everything they could. Maybe there is confusion of language here.

Europeon governments, going back for 2000 years have had varrying degrees of official, state supported Anti Semitism.

But then you see stories about police breaking into homes to steal Jewish symbols to stop violent mobs

The complete denial of having any link to the past by many (not all) modern Germans is rather frightening.

It's like KKK deniars in the southern states of America.

You are right about Rome,if you mean the Roman empire.

A term like "a few" before European governments might have wise,it would have made your comment 100% valid.

I thought it was an Israeli flag (assuming you relate to the OP) the police siezed ? (Sorry,I can't use the word steal it would never be made to stick in Deutschland).Nevertheless,it is not uncommon behaviour for them to act in this way over flags and symbols there without warrant (Pirate flags are a very sensitive issue in parts .... )

Some of the modern Germans are fiercely proud of their past,some of them are fiercely proud of the aspects of their past that cause you such justifiable concern.Some modern Germans are fiercely proud to stand up against the latter.Check out F.C.Sankt Pauli of Hamburg ...... a fine example of a growing culture of "Gegen Rechts" sentiments being displayed VERY publicly.

Finally,I do not know enough about KKK to comment,care to advise me of the situation?

Pirate

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 2:34:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

So please..name the people/groups...but not a whole continent.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is simply not possible to sum up the ideas of an entire continent in one fell swoop.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 2:41:25 PM

piratecommander

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

So please..name the people/groups...but not a whole continent.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is simply not possible to sum up the ideas of an entire continent in one fell swoop.

Well spoken

Pirate

(in reply to RealityLicks)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 3:04:49 PM

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Which Europeon countries have not had a history of Anti Semitism to varrying degrees over the past 2000 years? Why would I want to add "a few' ,when if you can give me an example, would change it to "virtually all". Or educate me if I am incorrect and Anti Semetism has been a rare occurance, occasional aberations if you will, over the past 2000 years of Europeon history.

Several Europeon nations have actuall laws banning the display of certain symbols. I see the historical reasoning behind such, but in general disagree with the policy. Hanging a Nazi flag in your window is absolutly illegal (in Germany), and siezing it (while on public display) is legal with no warrant. The crime is being conducted in public. I would assume that to enter a home to look for Nazi paraphanalia the german police would require a warrant, and some basis for wanting to enter. This has nothing in common with that sort of situation.

The display of an Isreali flag or Star of David is not a crime. One would have to be some sort of clarvoiant or facist to be able to decide what the person meant by displaying the flag. Heck, it could be art. It could be Irony. It could be solidarity with Isreal. It could be support for the UN which created the state of Isreal. It could be lots of things.

You can look up the KKK if you want Pirate.

And you bet flying a pirate flag instead of a legal flag on a ship will get you into a heck of a lot of trouble, everywhere in the world. Again, that is a real law. Not the whim of a cop. Or appeasement of a mob.

(in reply to piratecommander)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 3:12:58 PM

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"So how long exactly do you have to be somewhere to become a native? "

You get the question of the day award. Not only is it subjective in nature, I am having a hard time just finding out how long the current bunch of Palestinians has been there. Generally I thought that Palestinian would mean citizens of Palestine, but sifting through the history of the region is a task.

Taking the question completely in general though is another can of worms. A day, a century, a millenium ? Taken that way, Israel has only been there for sixty some years, so if someone else came along with the might and will to take over, with some history in the region, would we blindly support them ?

Whatever anyone does, do not pull out a Bible. I'll sic Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss on you, who claims that according to the Bible the Jews are not supposed to have their own state until the second (well first to them) coming. Yup, a Rabbi arguing against the very existence of Israel. He is also anti-Zionist. Does that make him an anti-Semitic Rabbi ?

T

PS, as to just who is living on those "Indian" reservations, alot less than there could have been, just ask Custer.

T

(in reply to piratecommander)

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/12/2009 3:17:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"So how long exactly do you have to be somewhere to become a native? "

You get the question of the day award. Not only is it subjective in nature, I am having a hard time just finding out how long the current bunch of Palestinians has been there. Generally I thought that Palestinian would mean citizens of Palestine, but sifting through the history of the region is a task.

Taking the question completely in general though is another can of worms. A day, a century, a millenium ? Taken that way, Israel has only been there for sixty some years, so if someone else came along with the might and will to take over, with some history in the region, would we blindly support them ?

Whatever anyone does, do not pull out a Bible. I'll sic Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss on you, who claims that according to the Bible the Jews are not supposed to have their own state until the second (well first to them) coming. Yup, a Rabbi arguing against the very existence of Israel. He is also anti-Zionist. Does that make him an anti-Semitic Rabbi ?

T

PS, as to just who is living on those "Indian" reservations, alot less than there could have been, just ask Custer.

T

In other words, you can't explain any of the bs in your post, because it was just a bunch of bs. So now your going to throw out another bunch of bs to cover yourself.....well done.

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(in reply to Termyn8or)

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