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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 9:25:04 AM

subtee

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Twins, we are.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 9:25:50 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I was thinking about this thread and how to answer it.

Apparently we were sharing head space. LOL

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 9:27:49 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Twins, we are.

Starting to look like a threesome... damn we're such a kinky bunch!

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 9:32:07 AM

subtee

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From shallow question to kinky bunch in 3 posts...LOVE it

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 10:31:18 AM

JustStephen

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hmmmm...

Im not of a mind to compromise and I do live in a perfect world so I don't have to. My submissive (She will kill me for saying that) is perfect at everything I have asked of her and more.

I have however found myself compromising in past relationships and wont do it again. If its not right then yes, end it, call it a day, dump her, whatever you want to call it but remember we are talking about people and although they might call themselves worthless slaves they have feelings. (like plants

)

IMO Compromise is poison in a relationship but if what you have is a D/s agreement (not relationship) and whats being delivered does not add up to the contract then yes it has to be considered.

If the submissive isn't delivering on their side of the contract is it because they don't want to, because they want to change the terms of the agreement or because the Dominant isn't delivering on their side of the deal?

Contracts have to have more than one party and all these discussions seem to revolve around what the submissive isn't delivering. Dominants should remember that they have a responsibility to the submissive as well.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 10:41:22 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Well in my eyes a partner is about being everything.

In my eyes, Sir is ‘a god’, but I am also aware, he is a man. I do not think it would be fair of me to consider him to be “everything” He is what I need, and I am appreciative of anything he is willing to give beyond that. It feels like a partnership to me.

A thought I had toward rejection over what would, generally, be perceived as petty; isn’t there often, in those occurrences, an underlying issue?
Kim

Yes Kim I believe this to be far more likely

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 11:04:17 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

There have been a number of postings recently where a select few dominant guys give the impression that if a sub can't do this, that or the other, one should get rid of them, even if that falls within a relationship.
This surely means that submission comes before anything else and takes absolute precedence.
Its like saying 'ya know what? the woman is an amazing conversationalist, she's intelligent, deep, thoughtful, caring, kinky,loving, understanding but she can't polish my shoes right and therefore she has to go'.
When I look at these posts I can't help but shake my head at the shallowness. It gives submission no depth and appears to me that these people are just playing silly games and are not looking for anything deeper than an Gucci handbag.

Am I alone with these thoughts or do others feel like me?

That's rather hard to answer since you've given no specific examples. I don't particularly recall anyone suggesting kicking a submissive to the curb because they can't properly lick a boot to suit someone.

On the other hand, again since we have no specific examples... who's to say the submissive is "an amazing conversationalist, she's intelligent, deep, thoughtful, caring, kinky,loving.." all that. If she's that devoted, surely she could learn to lick a boot or what have you.

There are also those who might ask... do you consider dominance that cheaply? That it can be had by submissives regardless of disobedience or inability to serve?

As has already been said, people have needs in relationships... if those needs aren't being met they can either try to find a compromise or they can get out. Well I suppose they could stay and be miserable, but I don't generally advocate unhealthy choices. People have an amazing range of needs... for some various kinks are a need. If that needs isn't being met, they're just not going to be happy. Are you suggesting a dominant give up their happiness to give a submissive a home? When did dominants become a charity?

Personally, I don't advocate kicking anyone to the curb (dominant or submissive) over trivial things. People do need to keep their priorities in order... if a submissive can't lick a boot just so... or what ever it is... and its not an important issue to either the dominant or the relationship dynamic... then absolutely it ought to be compromised on. On the other hand if a submissive is unable to serve as expected in a number of areas, that's a different matter... sometimes two people just aren't a good match... and no matter how much you might care about them it isn't going to change the fact that you don't fit well together. Sometimes you have to care enough about someone to let them go so they can find a better match. Been there, done that. I don't view submissives as something cheaply had (well, not all of them... there are some that pretty much throw themselves out there...) nor do I view dominance as something cheaply given either (again, with some notable exceptions).

I don't think it would be fair to pin point an example and I don't think specifics are all that important, though if they are to you then I apologize.
As far as saying the said sub could be an amazing conversationalist and so on and so on, that two is an example of what may pull a good relationship together as a bunch of positives. The question I should of asked on that particular line is, does a negative submissive trait outweigh everything else that's good? She is still a submissive at the end of the day but perhaps one that is struggling with a few things. For some she will make up for that with all her other good attributes that bring value to the relationship but for others the simple requirements that remain (for whatever reason) unfulfilled, is enough to terminate the arrangement.

As far as the question about considering dominance cheaply. That's a whole new topic.

I am not suggesting that a dominant keeps a submissive through pity or that either party should live in an unhappy household.
I am asking if more than just submission is valued in a relationship and to that question I have had some good answers that make a lot of sense.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 11:07:19 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

From shallow question to kinky bunch in 3 posts...LOVE it

And yanno, I couldn't think of two cooler people to be a part of a triad with.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 11:12:20 AM

hopeful68

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The answer is yes, it has gotten as shallow and cheap as you are suspecting. There are hordes of men on here that all they want is what they want, and if you dont meet those exacting standards your out. Plain and simple. (gather your testicals boys). "I am Dominant, and if you are to be used as a toilet then that is what you will be used for, and I dont want to hear one intelligent thing come out of your mouth, and for godsakes I dont give a shit about your opinion."

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 11:29:27 AM

InTonguesslave

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I wear sneakers. If my sub tries to polish them, there will be consequences . (quote DarkSteven)

i was happily reading through and had to stop and quote this - god it made me laugh - thanks

k, back to maria... hugs and smooches.

< Message edited by InTonguesslave -- 4/13/2009 11:56:15 AM >

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 11:54:13 AM

InTonguesslave

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so much of the time we are told that actually what we do here and all that jazz, (smirk), is not far off vanilla.

if that be so - and on the whole most people agree that relationships take work - why is it then, that some D's would sooner kick their sub or slave to the curb than actually put the work in.

if, as i think we all might agree, it can take years to find the right combination of personality, bdsm and D/s Ms needs to match our own, isnt it a bit self depriving to get rid of someone who ticks most of the boxes but is crap at polishing shoes. or in my case, filling in forms.

i have a better understanding of it now, since the thought process thread, but even so there are some seriously black and white peeps out there that seem hell bent on cutting their nose off to spite their face (whatever the hell that means)

i can accept that if someone consistantly fails to make an effort, if all they want and respond to is bdsm and the M was after something more, then yes, ok, a mismatch was made.

but i think maria has a very good point. there is alot of black and white, do it or get ditched going on.

i would like to mention here too, that if that is the 'attitude' of the D, it will be apparent to the slave or sub and there will come a point when her willingness to serve will be countered by her awareness that she is incredibly disposable and therefore, not especially valued. not something that will instill positive reasons to serve her Master. noone likes to be made to feel that theyre value is entirely based on some mundane shite when the rest of the time she's flipping herself inside out trying to please. it gets a bit soul destroying and acutally, dare i say, the little thought creeps in that she could probably find herself someone who isnt so black, white and so hard to please.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 11:58:42 AM

hopeful68

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quote:

i would like to mention here too, that if that is the 'attitude' of the D, it will be apparent to the slave or sub and there will come a point when her willingness to serve will be countered by her awareness that she is incredibly disposable and therefore, not especially valued. not something that will instill positive reasons to serve her Master. noone likes to be made to feel that theyre value is entirely based on some mundane shite when the rest of the time she's flipping herself inside out trying to please. it gets a bit soul destroying and acutally, dare i say, the little thought creeps in that she could probably find herself someone who isnt so black, white and so hard to please.

Amen Lally

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 1:04:42 PM

IronBear

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lally lass, I would be the last person to disagree with what you are saying. Ask any master or Mistress who has a successful M/s dynamic and they will tell you that there is a great deal of work needed on both sides irrespective what form their relationship takes. I honestly don't know from personal experience if this is true for D/.s sucessful dynamics but based on my observations and conversations with friends who are in a D/s dynamic I believe it does apply there too.. For example, I may take on a slave who tells me at the onset, that needleplay is a hard limit for her. She would of course know that I love needleplay. yuet kin the overall scheme of things, needle play is only one aspect of my BDSM pleasure and as such it does not carry as much weight as having the right girl in my collar. After all I could always find a sub/slave to practice my needle play on without any other involvement, or even look at bring another girl into our poly situation if all other considerations fitted. For me in any rate, it is the whole dynamic in which BDSM is only a small and not terribly important part which counts. There can be much pleasure and fulfilment in working through those issues which nmay arise with someone. Banishing someone from my home is indeed the final resort when all else fails, and not one to be taken lightly as I found on two earlier ocassions.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 2:08:50 PM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I am asking if more than just submission is valued in a relationship and to that question I have had some good answers that make a lot of sense.

If a couple agrees to a monogamous relationship, is more than just monogamy valued in the relationship?

I see those two questions as the same. I entered the relationship with the understanding that I would submit to his will. That is part of the foundation of our relationship. He knows who he is and what he needs in a partner and it is someone who will completely submit to him in whatever manner that he desires.

If something were to happen and I could no longer submit to him, then the very core of our relationship would be altered and the relationship that we have now would cease to exist. Whether we could salvage some other type of relationship out of it is questionable.

He finds great value in many things about me, but having the authority in the relationship is a core need for him to be fulfilled. Just like for many people, having a monogamous relationship is a core need for having a fulfilling relationship.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 3:12:21 PM

DavanKael

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Hi, Maria----
I haven't read the whole thread yet, just the OP. I have to say that within any relationship, I consider there to be things that are non-negotiables. A few of mine for a partner include: has to be physically attractive to me, has to be intelligent enough to hold his own with me, needs to be willing to stand up for me, etc. I don't know if the things about which you're speaking are what I would consider deal-breakers or if the person is being trifling. Sometimes, when people are making 'wish lists' on profiles, I think they may seem rather polar about certain facets. Those of us who are relationally oriented, I think, are less inclined to have a huge list of those sort of things and know that things are absolutely pivotal or non-negotiable. Or, sometimes people use those insurmountable lists as ways to avoid the responsibility of a relationship.
Davan

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 4:49:11 PM

InTonguesslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

lally lass, I would be the last person to disagree with what you are saying. Ask any master or Mistress who has a successful M/s dynamic and they will tell you that there is a great deal of work needed on both sides irrespective what form their relationship takes. I honestly don't know from personal experience if this is true for D/.s sucessful dynamics but based on my observations and conversations with friends who are in a D/s dynamic I believe it does apply there too.. For example, I may take on a slave who tells me at the onset, that needleplay is a hard limit for her. She would of course know that I love needleplay. yuet kin the overall scheme of things, needle play is only one aspect of my BDSM pleasure and as such it does not carry as much weight as having the right girl in my collar. After all I could always find a sub/slave to practice my needle play on without any other involvement, or even look at bring another girl into our poly situation if all other considerations fitted. For me in any rate, it is the whole dynamic in which BDSM is only a small and not terribly important part which counts. There can be much pleasure and fulfilment in working through those issues which nmay arise with someone. Banishing someone from my home is indeed the final resort when all else fails, and not one to be taken lightly as I found on two earlier ocassions.

dear Bear (not being formal just it wouldnt feel right just saying 'bear', not so cuddly for some reason)

thats how i feel it is and should be. that if problems arise they are worked on through caring and wanting them to be worked on because the relationship is valued and valuable to everyone concerned.

i agree with what kyra says too, that if she were ever unable to submit to her Master then it would be hard to see where the relationship would go from there.

these two things are what separate the black and white brigade from those that value what they have and understand what it all means.

< Message edited by InTonguesslave -- 4/13/2009 4:53:19 PM >

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 5:18:11 PM

kiwisub12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

If I had to live in constant fear that my imperfections would get me ‘kicked to the curb’ .I would walk to the curb myself and drive away.

anytime i go into a relationship, i am in there following my heart - i will do my best to be who i am, and make the other happy. And to do that effectively, i need to be secure in the (at least) acceptance/like/respect of the other. With my Sir, it took me several months to realise in my heart that he wasn't going to "kick me to the curb" when i screwed up. And i did - very inadvertantly - screw up at times.
I would hope that anytime i am in a relationship, there would be discussions about duties, responsibilities and feedback about the way the relationship is going - from both sides. One thing i really appreciate with Sir is that he periodically checks with me to see how i am with the relationship. Not that i have any problems, but the idea that we could discuss problems or issues is very important to me.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 6:04:30 PM

barelynangel

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Fast reply -- my response is based on SLAVERY not submission as in D/s but an M/s concept.

It all depends what a Man is looking for in a slave -- Dominants and Masters should get this idea pretty simply, yes? You are looking for certain things a sub will do and achieve with you you have a vision on the whole of why you are even seeking a sub or a slave. Expectations and standards you have as a whole for your LIFE which many do not differentiate between living life and living as M/s. His or her ability to reach and maintain those expectations will be how you determine whether or not YOUR effort in keeping them is worth the cost it takes to move them along to reach and maintain those expectations and standards. There is a goal, there is potential at achieving that goal which is why the slave or sub was choosen by the Dom or Master.

FOR MANY, therefore, the expectations and standards of the Dom or Master integrates ALL parts of his life and his slave's life as a whole. And if the slave is incapable or unwilling to reach and maintain the expectations and standards which is what the Dom or Master evaluated his/her potential in achieving in the beginning, then what may seem like an inconsequential concept to an observer is actually a HUGE deal with regard to the relationship as a whole and if it effects the whole to the point the cost of keeping the girl is greater than her value -- then a guy would be silly to waste his time and hers.

People don't need to understand the value system a Man places upon his expectations and standards and his reasons behind obtaining a slave, but i would think calling something shallow because your expectations and standards are different -- not better or nicer -- is well truism yes? It only allows your determination on what should be important to a Man who obtains a slave -- not a wife, a partner, a girlfriend -- but a slave. While that may incorporate a lot to a Man, only a Man can determine what makes his slave valuable to him and what limit he has to the cost he is willing to pay to keep her around.

Also, if you look at the value system of the dynamic is being the slave will reach and maintain his expectations and standards because the dynamic isn't separated or differentiated from living life, what you deem inconsequential may actually be a concept you as an observer are not privy to in the steps she must take to achieve his expectations and standards.

In every relationship, the parties have expectations and standards -- the same goes for M/s and D/s. If the slave cannot reach and maintain the expectations and standards of the Man, then to me, it could be more damaging to both to turn a blind eye to something that is evaluated as part of the whole to be VERY significant in a slave or sub reaching and maintaining his expectations and standards simply because of some other characteristic she may have that doesn't override the value a Man places on what you deem important for you (the OP or an observer).

Its all about value and cost. Where that cost and value is as different as some people having blue eyes and some green. If you as a Dom attempt to determine for OTHERS what their individual costs and values systems should be, then perhaps you are trying to hard to have it all be one way and more importantly for ONE reason. Its not. Everyone has different standards and expectations and reasons of their slaves and subs and why they choose to take them on.

Just because someone's value and costs system is different doesn't equate it to being shallow -- just different. For some this may be an eww factor but for many its simply what the dynamic which is their life as a whole -- is.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/13/2009 6:06:14 PM >

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 7:08:38 PM

KTownMaster

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This is an interesting topic, and it's seemingly drawn fire from all sides. So of course I have to jump in here.

I feel the same as OP in this regard. It's long felt to me like the 'lifestyle' has been getting cheaper. People act as if others are easily replaced, and you should treat them like books. I've always put a lot of effort into relationships, and yes, there is a point at which compromise has gone too far. But a lot of these issues sound like a lack of truly trying to work out the underlying cause, as was mentioned before. It's easier to ditch people and relations than it is to find a solution. And yes, there may not always be a solution which both parties can agree to, and they should split. Of course, I also think people looking to get out of something try to find said problem areas as a reason to leave. Kidding oneself, especially as a dominant person of a relationship, seems to me to be the blackest spot one could have on their soul. But I think that's a topic for another conversation.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/13/2009 10:22:45 PM

antipode

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quote:

why is it then, that some D's would sooner kick their sub or slave to the curb than actually put the work in.

I suspect there are many reasons - just for me, I've found that it is a complete waste of time, and there is a reasonably endless supply. To put that in a different perspective, I find all this "working on the relationship", with as the ultimate goal to make it last, a boring pursuit, and I find the change, a new person in my life, fun and refreshing. I get the feeling that if I "put the work in" I am in vanilla land, where I didn't want to be in the first place.

When I read through the profiles here, and the forum conversations, that a lot of people in "BDSM relationships" actually simply do vanilla with kink veneer - not that that's wrong, but it is just not me. I need fresh meat.

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