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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 12:40:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirMIkeSD
If I wanted a partner that is what they would be. A sub or slave while I may love is not a partner.

That dynamic wouldn't work for me at all, which is part of why I wasn't willing to consider being anyone's submissive for a long time. I want a kinky boyfriend, and am open to being his submissive if we interact that way. Likewise, I'm not willing to take on a pure service sub without an emotional/romantic connection.

Jaz, this came up fairly recently, but I don't have the link offhand. A lot of people said that if their submissive disobeyed even once, for any reason, on any issue no matter how petty, they'd dump him/her in a red-hot second. While I think that compatibility is important, and can understand something major being a dealbreaker, I am really uncomfortable with the "one-strike-and-you're-out" approach, and would not get involved with someone knowingly if that was their relationship style, even if they otherwise seemed compatible and attractive. I'm not capable of being perfect, 100% of the time, for years on end. I don't feel comfortable submitting to someone who is coercing my submission through threats.

(in reply to SirMIkeSD)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 1:35:02 AM

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I hear you, and from your perspective, you are right... It does mean that submission is #1. I have heard of this refereed to as EXTREME SUBMISSION. There are folks out there, that are very much like that, and then there are folks out there, like you, where the relationship is #1 and the submission falls within the relationship. If both partners are not in agreement about where the #1 priority is, relationship vs submission, then the partnership will never be complete.

I have listened to a couple of pod casts that advocate the kicking them to the curb, the first time that they fail to please you, but this seems to be a terrible waste of time and energy. If you have taken the time and trouble to properly train a sub, that IS a lot of time and work on our part. There will be consequences for not pleasing me the first time, but not the curb. I'll save the curb for repeated displeasure.

(in reply to antipode)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 2:24:19 AM

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Once again thanks for taking the time to respond.

Lally and Bear...gives Lally a hug

What you both said about a problem being worked on through caring and wanting to sustain a happy relationship. This in my opinion is the crux of it. If you care enough about the person and value what you have then you will put in extra efforts. Yes Lally, it can take many years to find the right one and in the mean time many may fall by the wayside but they fall by the wayside because generally they just didn't fit the bill of being able to build up a good chemistry and no matter how good a dominant or submissive they had been, they still would of got something wrong.

Kyra.. I think there is a huge difference between someone just not wanting or being able to be dominant or submissive anymore and someone who is still submissive but just finds a particular task difficult.
The foundations of why S and me got together was all to do with dominance and submission and we built our relationship around that. We have talked about how we would feel if one of us opted out of the BDSM or Ds side of things, especially after a health scare recently and we both categorically agreed that our love was far too deep to pull out and that our BDSM and Ds side was no longer the only core of our relationship.
I can understand why people would choose the opt out clause, especially if its a relationship in its fledgling stages but for most of the couples on here that have ridden the storm, BDSM and Ds is now only a part of what they are.

barelynangel... In my opinion a slave can be very different from a submissive and I think the term slave is tossed about all too lightly without seriously considering what that status implies.
I had a slave for two years and at the end of two years when he overstepped the mark with something I let him go. There was no emotion on my part, just a breaking of contracts. Perhaps that sounds cold but it wasn't because everything was clear cut from start to end. I was not in a relationship with him and I had nothing more than a fondness for him.
If I had fallen into a relationship with him the he would of become my submissive and would of been freed of his slave hood. Before anyone shouts me down can I just say that this is how I look at slavery and submission and is only my personal feelings on the difference between the two.
Once an equal relationship is formed then I would expect there to be ups and downs, just as any relationship in the nilla world.
Of course what seems like a minor problem to outsiders could be a major problem to the partnership but is that problem to do more with the lacking of good chemistry than an emotional hiccup that can be cleared up? an example of this is my ex who had a tendency to eat loudly at supper time. This became a huge irritation to me and to a point where I no longer ate my meals with him. Steve can also eat loudly but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. The difference is I adore S and I didn't adore my ex and therefore he irritated me far more easily.

KtownMaster... I think it is only easy to ditch a relationship if that relationship isn't working and if its not working then there is a serious lack of two way emotions. Like others here have said and I agree, the final excuse for letting go of a submissive seems to generally be because she didn't live up to his expectations as a sub and not because he just didn't fancy her anymore.

Antipode... it sounds like your just not ready to settle down.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 4/14/2009 2:26:00 AM >

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(in reply to antipode)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 2:43:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirMIkeSD
If I wanted a partner that is what they would be. A sub or slave while I may love is not a partner.

That dynamic wouldn't work for me at all, which is part of why I wasn't willing to consider being anyone's submissive for a long time. I want a kinky boyfriend, and am open to being his submissive if we interact that way. Likewise, I'm not willing to take on a pure service sub without an emotional/romantic connection.

Jaz, this came up fairly recently, but I don't have the link offhand. A lot of people said that if their submissive disobeyed even once, for any reason, on any issue no matter how petty, they'd dump him/her in a red-hot second. While I think that compatibility is important, and can understand something major being a dealbreaker, I am really uncomfortable with the "one-strike-and-you're-out" approach, and would not get involved with someone knowingly if that was their relationship style, even if they otherwise seemed compatible and attractive. I'm not capable of being perfect, 100% of the time, for years on end. I don't feel comfortable submitting to someone who is coercing my submission through threats.

I am very much like you in that respect.
A long time ago I started seeing a guy off here that was overly formal with his dominance. It just came over as cold and selfish and I ended up saying to him, "cut the crap and get off your bad acting pedestal for a moment so we can perhaps get to know each other" actually he couldn't because he didn't understand how to be dominant without being domineering and in the years that I have been around on the scene I have witnessed far too much of that.
Personally I can only get into the depths of deeply depraved kink when we have openly shared and embraced all of our emotions but thats just me. I do however believe that an overly formal dominant will just get an actress of a sub and never witness her true depth.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 4:11:55 AM

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Another question could be Is Dominance that cheap? The vast majority of "my Dom/me won't and My slave/sub doesn't.... " threads are full of dump his/her ass advice. So it would seem relationships are both instant and disposible, like a freezer full of microwaveable meals. All equally tasty and nutritious.... not!

Until people are willing to take the time to really discover the other person, to really understand relationship goals and to communicate those goals, relationships will continue to be instant and disposible. I see this in vanilla relationships as well, so it's not something limited to D/s M/s and certainly not limited to Masters dumping slaves.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 4:16:56 AM

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I have to agree with Antipode and Angel, the difference is what a person/s expects of the relationship going in.

If you want hearts and flowers, mushy "I will love you forever" with a side of kink, that's all well and good but please do not wrap it up in 24/7 submission or slavery. Because for SOME of us, the two do not ALWAYS go together.

And.......to break it down to the most basic of relationship expectations. If Jane goes into a hetro, vanilla marriage, with monogamy as an expectation, Joe strongly agrees that it is very important and enthusiastically agrees that they must remain faithful to one another for the marriage to work. Both parties have promised they will be totally monogamous. Six years later, Jane finds out that Fred, Joe's golf and fishing buddy, is a little more than they let on. There was an awful lot going on in that fishing cabin. She confronts Joe and Joe admits, "Baby I still loooooooooove you, it's just that I have this itch that only Fred can scratch!" Jane says "Fuck you, you sicko bastard!!! You promised! It's over! Get out!" How many people are going to say she is wrong, that she should give Joe some slack? Sure, he promised because he really thought he could, but now, it's just too hard and he's gotta have his little something something on the side. What does it matter, he still loves her?

Now, you can tweak that whole scenario a dozen different ways, make Jane the cheater with 20 different guys and Joe the "victim" or make Joe the cheater with 20 different women. Each version is going to tweak different people in different ways due to societal conditioning. The fact remains, there was an initial agreement made, then broken. Jane had expressed the importance of monogamy from the outset. Jack agreed that it was important and that he would be totally monogamous.

Okay, so MasterLongDong finds himself a slave, littlemisshotpants. She begs for his collar. MLD says, if you want to be my slave you need to understand the conditions. I need my dishes done daily by 8pm, no excuses, if's and's or but's. They have to be done. In addition, I absolutely must have my cock sucked every single night when I go to bed at 10pm. No excuses, it is a need and a requirement. It will be done. I care about you but you must understand, if you want to be my slave you must agree to these two conditions. lmhp gushes, "oh yessss MasterLongDong (had to get the full name effect in this sentence yanno) I totally understand! Dishes done by 8pm, cock sucked at 10pm". MLD takes lmhp at her word, that she has thought the whole thing through, no matter what, dishes done by 8 cock sucked at 10. On goes the collar.

Six years go by, dishes are now getting done later and later, and lmhp is grumbling that she really doesn't feel like sucking cock at 10 anymore. After all, there are those 3 short people, her job, her tmj.........yada yada yada.. MLD says to her "littlemisshotpants, if you don't start getting those dishes done by 8 and suck this amazing cock (pointing to crotch) every night at 10, I am going to have to release you and find a slave that will.

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG, lmhp goes running to all her friends. "Can you believe that asshole?!?!?" And you can imagine the rest. Drama and chaos ensue. All the women call MasterLongDong a terrible, hateful, cold, unfeeling bastard. "Leave him!!" they shout. "You deserve better!!!"

Really?

There was an agreement. MLD expressed the importance of the two actions. lmhp promised.

Now, while I am pretty much NOT that black and white, in fact my whole world seems to be shades of gray. I would personally, help lmhp find sollutions to her problems...........BUT, according to the agreement, I don't have to. I could even bring in a younger, hotter, lmhp2, to do the dishes. I never agreed to monogamy. But what I would do, what is acceptable for ME, does not necessarily apply to MLD. I don't expect it to.

The key is in the communication. Just because littlemisshotpants had an idea of what mastery and slavery was, does not mean that MasterLongDong had the same ideas. She didn't think through, what if I can't do those dishes, what if I quit wanting to worship at the cock alter? She just wanted that fucking collar and all that SHE thought it entailed. No questions, no plan B for her promises. Just because MLD has a different way of handling his slave, does not mean it's wrong. The only fault is they BOTH didn't communicate enough or think ahead about the what if's. None of us do. Stuff comes up. Sometimes they are deal breakers and relationship enders. Regardless of my own relationships, and expectations of them, saying MLD is a bad master because he released his loved slave because she didn't follow through with dishes and cock sucking isn't a crime. It's just not what I would do. Doesn't make it wrong, just different.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 4:17:37 AM

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Hi OP,

Again, its a cost/value thing. You allow in your slaveries very little cost to you but a demand a high value with the threshold being very little for room for error. Within your relationships you are willing to pay a cost to achieve a value where the threshold of error is much lower because your cost is so high. I don't think its about an emotional or chemistry connection but the VALUE you place and the COST you are willing to pay. You choose in your relationship with your slave to allow very little value to the emotional and chemistry connection, therefore you place a hight value on adhereance to the contract and obedience. IF a slave fails in what you have deemed valuable, and the cost of keeping them then is too high its later gater. IN what you deem is a equal relationship you choose to place more value on emotional and chenistry and allow a much lower value to obedience and/or contract adherence. So disobedience or what not is not a major blow to the person's value to you and you are willing to pay a higher cost to maintain what YOU want.

Again, it depends what you place value to and what your expectations and standards are. So what YOU may deem worthy and of substance may not be in another relationship -- again -- it doesn't make it shallow, it makes it different.

I presume you choose a slave based on potential you see for a slave to reach and maintain your standards and expectations, i presume you train your slaves and not simply expect perfection from day one to your expectations and standards. Therefore, despite what you say -- you DO have a margin of error you do allow the slave. YOu do have a cost concept you are willing to pay to own a slave. And you do have an idea of where the line is drawn between a slave's value does not exceed the cost within which to keep him. My point is the costs and values and thresholds and margins are all different for each relationship -- i.e. a bond between two people.

To some for a slave to constantly need correction on a concept no matter what it is may place to high of a cost on the Man who is her Master because he values relaxation and fun over continuously repetitive training on the same thing over and over. So no matter how much he may enjoy other aspects of his slave and the relationship he has with her, this cost may override the rest because it overrides her overall value to him. So he says later gater because to him paying the cost with no real return in value is not worth his time or hers.

I get what you are saying about how you view slave and your relationship but again its about what return you are getting in their value and how it applys to your expectations and standards of your LIFE as a whole, which is why you choose a slave which you say you don't have a relationship with or a sub which you do. They both fulfill expectations and standards in your life and you apply a cost value system to how they are able to achieve and maintain same -- and that is different for each of them. If you have such a vast difference in this in your own relationships and how people exist in your life, i really don't get how you are determining how others determine their own costs and values for a slave OR a sub reaching and maintaining their expectations and standards as being shallow? You are trying to apply a truism to how others view relationships, and you are applying shallow to something you deem is inappropriate based on your truism.

angel

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(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 4:59:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

There have been a number of postings recently where a select few dominant guys give the impression that if a sub can't do this, that or the other, one should get rid of them, even if that falls within a relationship.
This surely means that submission comes before anything else and takes absolute precedence.
Its like saying 'ya know what? the woman is an amazing conversationalist, she's intelligent, deep, thoughtful, caring, kinky,loving, understanding but she can't polish my shoes right and therefore she has to go'.
When I look at these posts I can't help but shake my head at the shallowness. It gives submission no depth and appears to me that these people are just playing silly games and are not looking for anything deeper than an Gucci handbag.

Am I alone with these thoughts or do others feel like me?

quote:

To me, it sounds like someone who knows what they want.

Yep, I have to agree with this.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 5:06:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Another question could be Is Dominance that cheap? The vast majority of "my Dom/me won't and My slave/sub doesn't.... " threads are full of dump his/her ass advice. So it would seem relationships are both instant and disposible, like a freezer full of microwaveable meals. All equally tasty and nutritious.... not!

Until people are willing to take the time to really discover the other person, to really understand relationship goals and to communicate those goals, relationships will continue to be instant and disposible. I see this in vanilla relationships as well, so it's not something limited to D/s M/s and certainly not limited to Masters dumping slaves.

Yes.. sadly for some people it is. I know its not unique to any of this and I know it doesn't matter to many.
I have teenagers that have sex mates. They may see a girl for ages but insist they are not in a relationship with them which kind of baffles me but I guess that's a similar comparison to what we are talking about here.
The post was more about Dominants dumping subs than Masters dumping slaves but its diversed a little now. I am not insinuating that a slave is of lesser value but I personally believe the whole Master/slave thing is a different dynamic.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 5:08:45 AM

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I'm one of those 'Leave em' people. Why? If you aren't happy, and don't want to make it work, why would you stay in that relationship? I do not care if Master domlydomdomdom makes you do the dishes precisely at five, it doesn't interest me at all. Either do it, or leave. You agreed to it, quit the whining.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 5:51:30 AM

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Ok then heres another one

When we got together I knew he was really into certain types of stuff and I was up for it. We didn't go down those routes for some time and certainly not before getting to know each other extremely well. When we did eventually go down that route I freaked big time. Should he of chucked me out at that point? According to some people on here he should of. Well he didn't. What he actually did was unravel the whole thing, find out why I reacted the way I did and then used his skill to get me to overcome it and the reason he did so is because he cared and didn't think of me as a disposable strumpet.

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 6:18:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Kyra.. I think there is a huge difference between someone just not wanting or being able to be dominant or submissive anymore and someone who is still submissive but just finds a particular task difficult.

I wasn't aware that we were only talking about "difficult tasks". Your original question said "can't" not difficult and then you clarified it with is submission the only thing that is valued, hence my post. No, it isn't the only thing of value in our relationship, but it is the heart of who we (the people in my family) are; at our core, this is how we respond to each other. He leads; Alandra and I follow. I am not even including BDSM in this; that is just how we like to have fun.

Love for us is about accepting each other as who we are. I accept that he is dominant and that he needs to have complete authority within the relationship. Having a shared decision making power within the relationship is something that would be extremely unfulfilling for him. That doesn't make him see me as cheap, disposable or that he loves me any less. It is who he is and I accept and love him for it, just as he accepts and loves me for who I am.

If I were to have some radical shift in personality at my core level and could not submit anymore, the most profound expression of my love would be to not expect him to change who he is to accomodate me. Most likely, the relationship we have now, would have to end. If any other type of relationship could be salvaged, then that remains to be seen. But we would no longer be an M/s relationship.

If others want to perceive that as cheap, less meaningful, that we don't love each other deeply or any other negative characterization, then that is their perogative. It doesn't impact the reality of our family.

Knight's Kyra

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(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 6:24:04 AM

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Maria,

The more I read your posts on this thread, the more I am confused about what the point of this thread is about. The vague generalized questions at the begining have given you vague generalized answers and then you throw in specfiics like "When we did eventually go down that route I freaked big time. Should he of chucked me out at that point?" when you get an answer from someone that you don't seem to like.

What is this thread really about?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to kyraofMists)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 6:39:00 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

What is this thread really about?

Knight's Kyra

Good question.

Kim

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RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 6:42:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Ok then heres another one

When we got together I knew he was really into certain types of stuff and I was up for it. We didn't go down those routes for some time and certainly not before getting to know each other extremely well. When we did eventually go down that route I freaked big time. Should he of chucked me out at that point? According to some people on here he should of. Well he didn't. What he actually did was unravel the whole thing, find out why I reacted the way I did and then used his skill to get me to overcome it and the reason he did so is because he cared and didn't think of me as a disposable strumpet.

I would never presume to tell you, your SO, or anyone else that what is working splendidly for them, is wrong. Because, apparently, it is working for both of you. However........what works for you, will not work for everyone. And......if it wasn't working for him or you, if he or you were miserable and saw no reason to move forward, then yes, he should have chucked you.

If things are great for you, then what difference does it make how others do it?

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 7:16:39 AM

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Thinking about this idea of 'can't', 'difficult' or 'freaked' there are examples of each of these in our relationship and how we worked them out. This is one example:

Prior to 2009 I did not know how to ski. I had never been on skis before. He bought a season pass for the family at the local ski hill and told me that I was going to go skiing. Technically, at that time I could not ski. I had to take a ski lesson and by this time, I am really freaked about having to do it. I had to overcome some significant fear in order to learn.

He was very patient with me; he gave Alandra and I extra free time, to go skiing so I could practice. We spent hours with me praticing how to stop and how to turn. Despite how scared I was, how difficult it was for a 37 year old, out of shape woman to learn to ski, I was very persistent. I put forth my best effort, one because he told me I was going to do it and two because I learned that it was fun.

We skied all of Feb and March and now I am a skier. I am now doing something that four months ago I could not. He did not kick me to the curb because I couldn't ski. He just instructed me to go get the skills that I needed to learn to ski.

If at any point during the process, I had refused to learn, refused to take the lessons, refused to practice, refused to push myself then that would have been willfully disobeying his authority. That is the point at which our relationship would have been altered.

Just because I don't have the skills to do something, or it is difficult or it freaks me out does not mean that our relationship will change. The refusal to do his will is what alters the relationship.

How others choose to do what works for them is their choice.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to kyraofMists)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 7:17:08 AM

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quote:

When we did eventually go down that route I freaked big time. Should he of chucked me out at that point?

For some yes, your freaking could have seriously cost some more than they were prepared to expend on keeping you because your freaking somehow for whatever reason on the Man's part diminished or reevaluated the potential he saw in you to a point of not being worth the effort. For others, such as your Man now, would have decided the cost of keeping you around did not exceed your potential or actual value to him at that time despite your freaking causing him work he may not have been prepared for or wanted. For others still, they may simply shrug and keep you around for amusement value and then chuck your behind when they get bore or the cost of the amusement isn't worth the work.

If you start attempting to define what you observe as shallow or not shallow in individual relationships and reasoning-- then you are attempting to create a truism, yes? Now if you were asking WHY with an open mind people who place such a directive to the cost they are willing to expend and how they create that cost versus value concept, you may find yourself getting a lot more insight of how people view the relationships they are involved in within this dynamic and what they consider to much cost and not enough value to them when they choose a person who they believe has the potential to reach and maintain their expectations and values - this could amount to many things -- the time requirements he doesn't have available to him, the emotional requirements he doesn't WANT to deal with, the effort he may wish to expend on other things etc etc etc. You are attempting to call shallow a very vague concept with no substance as to the reasoning behind the results you are seeing. Nothing about this dynamic is ever shallow, its simply individualistic.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 7:22:28 AM

subtlebutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Thinking about this idea of 'can't', 'difficult' or 'freaked' there are examples of each of these in our relationship and how we worked them out. This is one example:

Prior to 2009 I did not know how to ski. I had never been on skis before. He bought a season pass for the family at the local ski hill and told me that I was going to go skiing. Technically, at that time I could not ski. I had to take a ski lesson and by this time, I am really freaked about having to do it. I had to overcome some significant fear in order to learn.

He was very patient with me; he gave Alandra and I extra free time, to go skiing so I could practice. We spent hours with me praticing how to stop and how to turn. Despite how scared I was, how difficult it was for a 37 year old, out of shape woman to learn to ski, I was very persistent. I put forth my best effort, one because he told me I was going to do it and two because I learned that it was fun.

We skied all of Feb and March and now I am a skier. I am now doing something that four months ago I could not. He did not kick me to the curb because I couldn't ski. He just instructed me to go get the skills that I needed to learn to ski.

If at any point during the process, I had refused to learn, refused to take the lessons, refused to practice, refused to push myself then that would have been willfully disobeying his authority. That is the point at which our relationship would have been altered.

Just because I don't have the skills to do something, or it is difficult or it freaks me out does not mean that our relationship will change. The refusal to do his will is what alters the relationship.

How others choose to do what works for them is their choice.

Knight's Kyra

So you're coming with me snowboarding next time? AWESOME!

< Message edited by subtlebutterfly -- 4/14/2009 7:23:04 AM >

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~Ms. Awesomeness to YOU!~

(in reply to kyraofMists)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 7:38:17 AM

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline

Actually kyra Im not sure what Im on about either! I have diversed in a different direction of what the post was originally about and I apologize for that. 2 days in bed with a crap stomach is doing wonderful things to my brain cells.

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S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to subtlebutterfly)

RE: Is submission that cheap ? - 4/14/2009 7:58:43 AM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

Jaz, I'm fine with some formality, but I don't want a D/s relationship with someone who isn't my boyfriend.

LaTigress, I've been in a relationship for almost 5 years as a Dominant and for about 4 years as a submissive. I considered it 24/7, since it did involve things outside the BDSM area, and I didn't start and stop the D/s any more than I started and stopped being their girlfriend! However, I needed to have that emotional and romantic connection, not *just* the D/s.

(in reply to allthatjaz)

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