On torchure. Obama is WRONG (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 8:54:10 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fk5wfAYX0U


Every step of the way this country is so corrupt- - how can they have a straight face?   This will come back to haunt us.



TheHeretic -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 10:27:30 AM)

        I don't care for Mr. 'Uber-man' one bit.  He's on the same list with O'Reilly and Hannity, in my mind.  Just another talking-head whore in an expensive suit.

      President Obama is showing signs of having a clue on this issue.  I like that.



NihilusZero -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 11:49:04 AM)

The president is only following rank and file with predecessors, proving that certain groups can indeed be too big or too 'important' to fail economically or to be accountable for blatant crimes.

And nevermind about the recent resolution concerning the legality of wiretapping also...





Arpig -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 1:12:45 PM)

For what its worth, I think he is right



Sanity -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 1:42:02 PM)

The Obama team learned that the grown ups who were in the White House previously did what was absolutely necessary. No more, and no less - therefore, they made this clear decision.

I think that Obama is further left than many of the most avowed progressives on this board are, but the reality of what is has shoehorned him and his handlers into tighter policy decisions than his supporters might have expected.



MarsBonfire -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 1:48:28 PM)

When interrogating captured insurgents in Iraq, they were asked, why did you join in this fight? "Simple. We heard you were torturing people in Abu Grahib." Bush's stupidity on this issue, and the morons who watch far too much "24" and give us these BS hypothetical "Ticking timebomb" scenarios, really need to have their asses hauled before a court, and be thrown into prison for at least a decade or two. The lawyers especially! What kind of lawyer seriously sits down at his fucking desk, and writes a paper that contradicts the Constitution, and several international treaties?

In Shakespeare's "Henry V" there's a scene where the young king brings in the church to explain to him that he has the right to go to war with France. Gobbledygook ensues, but the Fathers assure the king that, yes, he has the right to go do wrong. As Henry said himself... "it has come time to expand the boarders of my ancestor's kingdom... or to break it all to peices." Although Henry's war ended well for England, the same cannot be said of King Bush's attacking the wrong country, and subverting everything that the US was supposed to stand for.

I think Bush and his minions will go down in history as the worst American assholes since Sen. Jo McCarthy.  



DomKen -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 2:03:53 PM)

As much as I despise the fact that we tortured people I do agree that those who directly did it inside rules laid down by the DoJ should not face prosecution. It would be far too close to a ex post facto law. However the lawyers that crafted those memos authorizing illegal actions should rot in jail for life.



servantforuse -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 2:09:00 PM)

I for one think just the opposite. I think thatPresident Bush will go down in history as the one President willing to do what it took to end worldwide terrorism. So he authorised putting a bug on a terrorist to make him talk. So What...



DomKen -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 2:14:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I for one think just the opposite. I think thatPresident Bush will go down in history as the one President willing to do what it took to end worldwide terrorism. So he authorised putting a bug on a terrorist to make him talk. So What...

What? In the 7 years since 9/11 the worldwide body count from terrorist actions ha sgone up not down from the 7 years prior. GWB, torture, unlawful imprisonments and the invasion of Iraq led to more deaths caused by terrorist attacks not less.



slvemike4u -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 5:01:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I for one think just the opposite. I think thatPresident Bush will go down in history as the one President willing to do what it took to end worldwide terrorism. So he authorised putting a bug on a terrorist to make him talk. So What...
Well in that case shouldn't we have had a "Mission Accomplished" photo op.......or perhaps he was not sucessful in doing "what it took to end worldwide terrorism"....we still seem to have some terrorism going on.



NihilusZero -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 5:54:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The Obama team learned that the grown ups who were in the White House previously did what was absolutely necessary. No more, and no less - therefore, they made this clear decision.

Hypocrisy that permits the abuse of civil liberties to conduct fruitless tactics is "absolutely necessary"?

Maybe on the elementary school playground, if those are the sort of "grown ups" you refer to.



NihilusZero -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 5:56:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I for one think just the opposite. I think thatPresident Bush will go down in history as the one President willing to do what it took to end worldwide terrorism. So he authorised putting a bug on a terrorist to make him talk. So What...
Well in that case shouldn't we have had a "Mission Accomplished" photo op.......or perhaps he was not sucessful in doing "what it took to end worldwide terrorism"....we still seem to have some terrorism going on.

Do people still believe that idiocy? You cannot abolish terrorism. Just like you can't have 'world peace'. Well...actually, you can...but strangely the only way to get to that point is through a non-conformist, strict dictatorship. Unless that's what some people are asking for...



DarkSteven -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 7:56:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As much as I despise the fact that we tortured people I do agree that those who directly did it inside rules laid down by the DoJ should not face prosecution. It would be far too close to a ex post facto law. However the lawyers that crafted those memos authorizing illegal actions should rot in jail for life.


My thoughts as well.  If you're doing interrogations and the word comes down that the President has just secretly authorized new interrogation techniques, you KNOW what he wants.  And there was very likely some verbal direction to go ahead and torture.

I get the feeling that the Bushies actually believed that they would take over Iraq in a cakewalk, torture a few dozen Arabs, get actionable intelligence and destroy Al Qaeda in weeks.  The dumbasses had no idea that things wouldn't be easy.

Note that Obama has ruled the grunts on the front line to be unprosecutable but has not said that for the lawyers who created the policy.  I don't think he's made up his mind yet.  After the Spain ruling, he may feel that he's obligated to do something but is leery of taking too strong a stand and alienating a large portion of the American populace.



Lordandmaster -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 8:00:27 PM)

Not so sure about that logic.  It would be like saying that SS officers who exterminated concentration-camp prisoners within the rules laid down by the Nazi regime should not have faced prosecution for it after WW II was over, because it would be too close to an ex post facto law.

I don't know what would have been the right thing for them to do--there's such a thing as moral luck--but "I was just following orders" has never been accepted as a defense against charges of war crimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As much as I despise the fact that we tortured people I do agree that those who directly did it inside rules laid down by the DoJ should not face prosecution. It would be far too close to a ex post facto law. However the lawyers that crafted those memos authorizing illegal actions should rot in jail for life.



MrRodgers -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 8:15:47 PM)

Torture is tactically unreliable. Some that were tortured were essentially abducted for pay/bounty or set-up for capture, didn't know a damn thing only to eventually tell their torturers...anything.

The previous regime was out to create chaos and two profitable wars, almost double defense and security spending not including the wars, spread partisanship and debt and was either complicit on 9/11 or historically among the most incompetent admin. ever to occupy the white house.



DomKen -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/19/2009 8:43:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Not so sure about that logic.  It would be like saying that SS officers who exterminated concentration-camp prisoners within the rules laid down by the Nazi regime should not have faced prosecution for it after WW II was over, because it would be too close to an ex post facto law.

I don't know what would have been the right thing for them to do--there's such a thing as moral luck--but "I was just following orders" has never been accepted as a defense against charges of war crimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As much as I despise the fact that we tortured people I do agree that those who directly did it inside rules laid down by the DoJ should not face prosecution. It would be far too close to a ex post facto law. However the lawyers that crafted those memos authorizing illegal actions should rot in jail for life.


I think the line is that the torturers were told that the rules had been fabricated to come right up to the limit but not actually be legally torture. The SS camp guards knew they were killing people.

Fundamentally I'm not terribly comfortable with the situation and devoutly wished that we had never found ourselves in the position of debating what to do with people who tortured in our name. However this is where we're at and unless a case can be made showing that the interrogators knew what they were doing was torture and knew the instructions from the DoJ were just a ruse we should go after those that ordered the torturing.



Lordandmaster -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/20/2009 1:14:58 AM)

I agree that we should FIRST go after those who ordered the torture.  I'm not sure I agree that this means we shouldn't go after those who carried it out.  It's a difficult case for both moral and political reasons, but minimizing the gravity of the torture or the responsibility of those who participated in it can't be the right answer.



SpareBoyfriend -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/20/2009 1:52:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As much as I despise the fact that we tortured people I do agree that those who directly did it inside rules laid down by the DoJ should not face prosecution. It would be far too close to a ex post facto law. However the lawyers that crafted those memos authorizing illegal actions should rot in jail for life.


See Nuremberg Principle IV:
quote:

The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.


and the Nuremberg Defense.



SilverMark -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/20/2009 7:20:28 AM)

Olberman is simply wrong... why would we tear at the present with the past, only to find that the defense of actions based on orders are truly not actionable in this case? Why would we want the spectacle? If we wished to drag the past administration through the courts or the congress for evil doing it would only serve to undermine the more important matters at hand....does anyone really think they would be convicted of war crimes? Those ultimately responsible were wrong but, would it serve a purpose to drag the many involved like Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush through the mud to only have their methods finally exposed but not to have any reparations or convictions? It is not ok for America to torture not now, not then, not ever....It is not child splay as some would have us think that Mr. Obama has decided to move forward it is far more responsible to stop and then not repeat.



Lordandmaster -> RE: On torchure. Obama is WRONG (4/20/2009 7:43:16 AM)

By that argument, you may as well never charge anyone for murder, either.  The "purpose" would be to uphold the Constitution, punish those who violated the law, and demonstrate to the world that America has not lost its principles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Those ultimately responsible were wrong but, would it serve a purpose to drag the many involved like Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush through the mud to only have their methods finally exposed but not to have any reparations or convictions?



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