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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 6:10:14 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

All I know is, I've been wanting to get a small business off the ground for over a decade. Yet, I can't raise the capital to do so. Why? Simple:

"The rich" aren't paying their fair share.

What has tax got to do with a bank lending you the money to start up your own business?

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Post #: 41

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 6:46:45 AM

FirmhandKY

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Panda,

I can see your logic and your point. While I may disagree with some of your assessments, I honor your thinking.

But I see the problem somewhat differently than you do.

People are people, everywhere. Personal concerns are almost always paramount, and it is a rare individual who will rise outside of those parochial interests for "reasons of state".

Several thoughts come to mind when I read your posts about this situation:

If the US government was not already so powerful, it would not have had the ability, even if it had the inclination to do as you say.

Why is the government so powerful and why are the people so alienated from it that they allow it to act in such a manner?

I think the answer is that we are already so far down the road away from personal sovereignty that we see nothing wrong or out of whack with a government taking such actions - or just about any action which can it can define as "in the public good".

It has used the philosophies of taxations and "the general welfare" (collectivism) to such and extent, over such a long period of time, that the public doesn't generally believe it can stop the government from taking whatever action it wishes, and doesn't necessarily see any reason to do so.

Why?

Because the population has progressively given the power and the right of the government to act in "the greater good" in so many other aspects of life.

This is the Achilles heel of collectivism when it comes to individual freedom and social responsibility: the reduction of personal responsibility because the government has taken more and more of the responsibility in the social fabric of our society. Over time, the result is a more passive and dependent population.

You are angry that people didn't stand up to the government, and didn't somehow prevent what you see as an injustice.

But why should they? We are being trained and taught that "the government will make it right".

So what is the solution? How can we reframe the social and political structure to empower the individual, and remove the ability or inclination of "the government" to act in ways that we find immoral, or antithetic to our ideals?

Or do we?

You don't see any possibility that "the people" will rise up in some fashion, to make this change.

I'm not sure that you aren't correct, and maybe the pot that all us lobsters are in has already heated up enough that we are dinner just waiting to be served.

But I don't think that that is inevitable. I do think that there is a large reservoir of people, and thought in the US that may eventually decide to act, or that conditions may present themselves that will allow them to act.

Otherwise, I see no other path than even greater loss of individual power, and even greater gain of power by the government, so that "the state" will eventually subsume the individual and we'll all live in the anthill of society, ruled by a government of special interests who use the rationale of "the greater good" to extinguish every glimmer of individuality.

I don't like being an ant or a lobster, and I suspect from your posts, neither do you. Neither do a lot of people.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/25/2009 6:48:12 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 7:35:48 AM

kdsub

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Remember the country was split right down the middle at both elections of Bush... so there was never the monolithic agreement in his policies you expound. And we were lied to...many times...yes we were mad, scared, and wanting revenge...exactly the feelings I had for my family and myself. The majority of Americans thought, because of Bush, Iraq was part of the terrorist forces and a direct danger to us.

Just as soon as the lies and failed policies and poor leadership became apparent the American people threw out the Republican Party. It was one of the few times we had a weak incompetent President and a corrupt fanatical congress at the same time of a national emergency.

I believe it was the best thing that could have happened to the Republican Party. They have been forced to reevaluate their core policies and who their core supporters should be. They are moving away from the extremes and back to the fiscally responsible middle.

The last eight years of Republican rule and their propaganda machine almost destroyed the United States reputation and leadership throughout the world. Yes we do deserve some blame for being so trusting and easily manipulated. I think in the end it will be a good thing for America as a whole and it will never happen again with this voting generation anyway.

You have to be proud of America in the last election. Not only did they see through the Republican propaganda but also threw off the chains of racism. I think the future is bright and America is back on the correct course.

Butch

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Post #: 43

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 7:45:22 AM

kdsub

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OK what the hell is going on here!!!!!... everybody is just too damn polite. Firm are you sick?... maybe nearing the end and want to make amends.. or reading some damn fool book on how to get along?

Come on lets put some life into this discussion.

Butch

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Post #: 44

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 7:47:59 AM

MarsBonfire

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I agree with you, Butch. And time will tell: in these first 100 days, it's has been an absolute joy to watch We the People start to get a fair shake again, and the party of the old rich racist white guys slowly start to disappear up their own asses.

Just as an aside: a friend of mine, who has been following the GOP's "Just say neyet" policy which it adopted since November, coined the nickname: "Everlasting GOP-stoppers" for them. No matter how much they suck, they never completely go away... LOL

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Post #: 45

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:21:09 AM

philosophy

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Well Firm...maybe it's time for that hijack i tried to avoid earlier.......

Many people have seen Soviet Russia as a failed social experiment. We could concede good intentions, but it clearly failed. The proof of the pudding etc.....
Is it not possible to see the USA, as originally conceived, in the same way? A failed social experiment, conducted with all good faith, that nevertheless doesn't work?
Let's characterise Soviet Russia as total collectivism. It failed because it didn't recognise the importance of individualism early or fast enough. Let's characterise the original idea of the USA as total individualism. It's failing because it doesn't recognise the importance of collectivism.
Individuals cover a wide range of aptitudes. Some thrive in a cut-throat commmercial climate, while some wither. Some find a home in a regulated economy, while some stifle. The thing is, both have a right to exist. Both are just humans trying to do the best they can, with what they got.
There has to be a balance. A middle way between these two polar opposites that allows all to get mostly what they want. This means that collectivists have to concede the right of individuals to do things the way they want to. It also means individualists have to concede the right of collectivists to do things...er....collectively........and somehow we need to find a way for both these things to co-exist.
Pure freedom, like pure slavery, may be illusory.

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Post #: 46

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:21:30 AM

DarkSteven

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Okay. I always felt like America was more like an ideal and a set of principles than a physical country. I also tend to think of America in contrast to other countries at the time of its founding.

1. Individual property. This one is huge. To use a mundane example, lawns and gardens. Asian countries think of gardens as places of quiet and solace, but not individually owned. The British had landowning squires that hunted foxes and shot birds on their private preserves, closed off to the public. In America, people mow their own yards and raise their own flowers.

Europeans are used to apartment living. It's part of life there. In America, the idea of owning your own house is part of the culture. Before the housing meltdown hit, the rate of home ownership was used as a barometer of how well we were doing.

Your own business. The fact that you and I can own a business, either as an ongoing concern or as a stockholder in a public company, is also huge. Countries in which the state owns all the means of production, and the people are simply apparatchiks in the machine, are dreary and predictable and not profitable. The concept of satisfying a customer being linked to your own fiscal wellbeing has driven customer service more than any company training program can. It has fueled the motif of mom-and-pop companies on Main Street plugging away year after year. And the fact that Joe America can own a chunk of IBM and at least theoretically hae a voice in how it's run is amazing to me.

2. Freedom. Freedom of the press. Freedom to assemble. Freedom of speech. The right to own guns. The ability to choose our leaders at the polls. Yes, it can be abused, and yes it has been. But not as much as I would expect.

3. Opportunity. The legend is, if you work hard here, you can make it, regardless of where you came from. It happens, too. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama were both products of single-parent, poor families. NFL stars and rappers usually come from bad home situations. Your status at birth does not determine who you will become in America.

4. Diversity. There's a lot of talk about how racism is a part of American fabric. Try dropping a black family in Mexico or a Korean family in Japan and see what happens. A lot of the intolerance in America is because we DO have different cultures rubbing shoulders with one another.

5. Education. Our take on this is unique. European countries look at education as part of attaining a certain level of culture. We used to view it as the ticket to a comfortable white-collar existence. Now it's more practical - get the education you need for a specific job, then go do it. At the same time, we make college almost universally available unlike other nations that sharply limit the number of students. The ease of admission into grad school has provided us with an influx of the best and brightest overseas students, many of whom opt to remain here when they graduate.

I thik of America as a place where people are allowed to achieve, and their best is routinely coaxed from them.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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Post #: 47

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:21:50 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

I agree with you, Butch. And time will tell: in these first 100 days, it's has been an absolute joy to watch We the People start to get a fair shake again, and the party of the old rich racist white guys slowly start to disappear up their own asses.

Just as an aside: a friend of mine, who has been following the GOP's "Just say neyet" policy which it adopted since November, coined the nickname: "Everlasting GOP-stoppers" for them. No matter how much they suck, they never completely go away... LOL

Mars, I have to disagree with you there.
The first thing Obama did was to bail out big insurance, banks and brokerages.
I hope he comes up with a National Healthcare program, gets us out of all those "free-trade" deals that are just "outsourcing" deals in disguise and starts to focus on the U.S. for a change unlike Bush or Clinton. Obama is president of the U.S. not any other country or "the world."
He should keep foreign dealings to a bare minimum.
And, it's time to put the "lobbyists" on "K" street out of business.
I want to see some of this "Change" we were promised! Not four more years of Bush policies.
The Republicans and big business were locked together so firmly you'd have to throw a bucket of cold water on them like two dogs in heat.
We simply cannot have big business dictating what goes on in Washington. That happened under Bush and Clinton and look at where it's taken us.

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Post #: 48

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:26:25 AM

Owner59

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Nope Pop.That was the last thing bush did.And Obama was handed a shit sandwich to deal with.

None of that is Obama`s doing .

He`d (and us) have been quite happy not to have that situation.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/25/2009 8:27:44 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:29:59 AM

kdsub

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Not Firm but I hope you don't mind me making an obvious comment.

If failed experiments how did they become the two most powerful and successful nations in history? How do you measure sucess?

Butch

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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:34:00 AM

kdsub

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Good post DarkSteven...I do believe it is our laws and Constitution that make possible all the things you have eloquently stated.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/25/2009 8:35:22 AM >

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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:36:03 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If failed experiments how did they become the two most powerful and successful nations in history? How do you measure sucess?

.........er......ok. So, you're saying that Soviet Russia didn't fail? Or that the USA isn't at a crossroads?
Read Firm's posts more carefully. If i may speak for him, it seems that there is an ideological timebomb ticking away in the USA. As that country moves further and further away from what some perceive as its ideal direction, then things are getting more polarised.
Now, from what you've typed here already, it seems you see the Constitution and its ability to be reinterpreted as a sort of panacea. i'm not sure everyone shares your optimism.

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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:41:10 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Nope Pop.That was the last thing bush did.And Obama was handed a shit sandwich to deal with.

None of that is Obama`s doing .

He`d (and us) have been quite happy not to have that situation.

Owner, are you saying that Obama *couldn't* have said "No?"
All these "bailouts" are doing is keeping wealthy people wealthy at the expense of the Taxpayers.
He could have simply said; "I'm not signing it."

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Post #: 53

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:43:05 AM

Owner59

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"timebomb ticking away"

Get the waterboard!

Time`s a wasting.....

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Post #: 54

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:47:08 AM

kdsub

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No the Soviet Union did not fail on its own... it failed because of us... as great as they were we were richer and more powerful. Our economic pressure made it impossible for them to maintain their social fabric and compete with us. The cold war also did a good job of weakening ourselves.

Russia is still the second most powerful nation earth has ever produced and may again rise to confront us. They are a little quieter for now but far from a failed society.

I believe Firm is wrong in his assessment of what is America and you too I’m afraid. The strength of America is its ability to change with the times but still remain America. He wants to live in the past… and it may well be the better way but it’s not reality.

To make a difference you must change the present not hold up the past.

Butch

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Post #: 55

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:47:47 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Nope Pop.That was the last thing bush did.And Obama was handed a shit sandwich to deal with.

None of that is Obama`s doing .

He`d (and us) have been quite happy not to have that situation.

Owner, are you saying that Obama *couldn't* have said "No?"
All these "bailouts" are doing is keeping wealthy people wealthy at the expense of the Taxpayers.
He could have simply said; "I'm not signing it."

Of course he could have,Popeye.

But a long term man-made depression isn`t an option.

I`ll note that Pop is one of a very few conservatives who`s complaints about government spending are sincere and consistent.

Back on topic, Popeye?

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Post #: 56

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:53:18 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No the Soviet Union did not fail on its own... it failed because of us...

Yup.We did that, along w/ our friends and allies and even Pope John.

All of us, including every service member and taxpayer.It wasn`t all Ronnie`s doing.

The coup de gras was invading Afghanistan.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/25/2009 8:54:13 AM >

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Post #: 57

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 8:55:00 AM

philosophy

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Well, i applaud your optimism and your faith in your country. i am unable though to applaud your US-centric view of world events and the ignorance that engenders. Reagan had nothing to do with the Berlin Wall falling. That event, and the activities of Solidarity in Poland, had more to do with the USSR falling than any amount of cold war posturing from a rather bad actor who was once out-acted by a monkey...and who colluded with the McCarthy witch-hunt.

The collectivist experiment failed and imploded.....all Reagan did was come along and kick at a maimed leg.

(...well you did say this thread was too polite or something. Happier now?)

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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:00:44 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
America has the potential to be the country it was always meant to be. i, personally, am disappointed when it fails to live up to its own lofty expectations.

I cringe every time I hear or read statements such as this.
The feeling isn’t toward those who say it, but that it serves as a reminder to the real story behind the picture.

quote:

Should ones government live up to its own ideals?

The question I ponder; in the land of “Liberty and Justice for all”, should government have ideals?
Kim

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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:04:25 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

The question I ponder; in the land of “Liberty and Justice for all”, should government have ideals?
Kim

...interesting point. i'd answer by suggesting that in that Land of which you speak, the Government ought to consist of its own citizens. So, yes, it ought to live up to its ideals.....by way of the individuals who make government up living up to those ideals.

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Post #: 60