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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:05:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Well, he's got a point. Unless we understand what their motives really were, and whether they have a valid point to make, there's no significance in how many people showed up. OK, 20,000 people took to the streets to say they're against high taxes and earmark spending. So what? Who isn't? And what's their alternative? ...

I won't degrade this thread further by taking it way off the subject being discussed. Who protested, why, and any possible alternatives is a topic for some other time.

I will simply say that in my opinion, those who would try to dismiss the significance of the protests by claiming it was only a handful of some 2000 people nationwide... or by portraying the participants as ill-informed and misguided... are burying their heads in the sands of misinformation. They do nothing but delude themselves and those who would listen to them.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:13:10 AM

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"those who would try to dismiss the significance of the protests by claiming it was only a handful of some 2000 people nationwide... "

And who are these folks?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:20:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"those who would try to dismiss the significance of the protests by claiming it was only a handful of some 2000 people nationwide... "

And who are these folks?

The person to whom I originally responded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

The recent tea bag silliness is a perfect example: a group of rich people wanted their tax cuts protected, so they whipped up a crowd of about 2,000 people nationwide (about the same size crowd as half a high school football game)...

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:43:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

i'm forced to observe that this could be seen as a failed social experiment.

However, i'm trying very hard not to hijack my own thread......at least until we get to the fifth page or so

As you wish

What a great topic, Phil. I don't share your notion that the US should be seen as a failed experiment though. We went from a collection of rebel colonies to a world superpower in less than 175 years, and created a standard of living for the masses that the world had never seen before. There might be a few things in the recipe worth hanging onto...

I don't see our system being set up to make individualism the highest value, but it certainly demands that government acknowledge and respect it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:48:10 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm not sure that we really disagree that much.

No, I think we agree far more often than we disagree. What I find fascinating about that is that almost without exception, every time you and I arrive at the same conclusion, we get there by coming from completely opposite directions - you from a conservative starting point, I from a liberal point of origin. Much like the exchanges I have with Merc. That doesn't happen very often. I think the most significant commonality is that no matter what our fundamental sociopolitical philosophies, the three of us are all ultimately pragmatists - our individual values shape our visions of how we'd each like things to be, but our common sense is what (in the end) determines what we think is the most practical and most viable outcome. I like having those discussions. I wish it were easier to have more of them here. Of course, i also wish i could win the lottery, and (pragmatically speaking) that's probably a lot more likely.

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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:51:43 AM

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My idea of a "failed political experiment" would be something like the French Revolution. The aristocracy being rounded up, beheaded, and in the resulting power vaccuum, war and disease rushing in to fill it. Once again, it was a case of the rich and powerful thinking they didn't need to help those below them. Chaos resulted.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 11:54:38 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

My idea of a "failed political experiment" would be something like the French Revolution. The aristocracy being rounded up, beheaded, and in the resulting power vaccuum, war and disease rushing in to fill it.

And even that only qualifies as a partial failure. Right up until the "war and disease" stage, it was sounding like a rousing success to me!

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 12:02:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Who protested, why, and any possible alternatives is a topic for some other time.

....actually Treasure, i think it may well be bang on topic. The more i see and read about those protests, the more it seems to me to having been about idealism. Not in a unified sense, there were too many specific agendas represented there. More in the sense that all who did turn up were dis-satisfied, for one reason or another, with how they saw their ideals being represented by the State.
Which suggests that, in one sense, those protests were a version of this thread. Whither America? Or Wither America? (delete one according to your historical perspective)

(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 12:05:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I don't share your notion that the US should be seen as a failed experiment though. We went from a collection of rebel colonies to a world superpower in less than 175 years, and created a standard of living for the masses that the world had never seen before. There might be a few things in the recipe worth hanging onto...

...oh, i abolutely agree with that last sentence. Hope i made that clear from the start. However, i also think there were a few things worth hanging onto from the failed Soviet experiment too.

quote:

I don't see our system being set up to make individualism the highest value, but it certainly demands that government acknowledge and respect it.

....hmmm.........what would you say the highest value is, in US system terms, then?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 12:18:25 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Who protested, why, and any possible alternatives is a topic for some other time.

....actually Treasure, i think it may well be bang on topic. The more i see and read about those protests, the more it seems to me to having been about idealism. Not in a unified sense, there were too many specific agendas represented there. More in the sense that all who did turn up were dis-satisfied, for one reason or another, with how they saw their ideals being represented by the State.
Which suggests that, in one sense, those protests were a version of this thread. Whither America? Or Wither America? (delete one according to your historical perspective)

That's exactly the way I saw it too, but didn't want to take the the thread too far afield by responding. My point was, those protests featured a lot of angry, dissatisfied people who don't have a very informed grasp of what it is that they're angry and dissatisfied with. In which case, one has to ask what the significance is of the fact that they're angry and dissatisfied.

They're not really making a very good point - or at least, not the point that they think they're making - because they don't understand the issue they're complaining about. They're chanting slogans they heard on the radio. Any parrot can do that. I think the true significance of their protest is twofold - first, (as you say) they're making it clear that they're angry about what's happening in their country; but more importantly, they're demonstrating that they don't understand what's happening in their country, and are motivated solely by emotion and not at all by logic. Which is pertinent to the thread in that it calls into question how likely it is that an uninformed populace, driven primarily by emotion, can effect substantial, positive social change.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 2:52:37 PM

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Americans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"those who would try to dismiss the significance of the protests by claiming it was only a handful of some 2000 people nationwide... "

And who are these folks?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 2:53:48 PM

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

My idea of a "failed political experiment" would be something like the French Revolution. The aristocracy being rounded up, beheaded, and in the resulting power vaccuum, war and disease rushing in to fill it.

And even that only qualifies as a partial failure. Right up until the "war and disease" stage, it was sounding like a rousing success to me!

Actually the French Revolution was nothing like a rousing success. The revolutions leaders relatively quickly fell on each other and unltimately the reign of terror destabilized the state to the point where Napoleon had an easy time gaining power.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 2:53:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Thing is, Kdsub, what precisely is the American Way? Can you define it? Indeed can it be defined?
Shepard Smith clearly felt it had been contravened.......which presupposes it can be defined. i'm just wondering how posters here see it.

I don't know if you have seen much of Fox News, but Shepard Smith is not someone deserving of the slightest respect, much less respect for his opinions.

This is a news anchor who injects comments into his news story as if he were on MAD TV or the Daily Show.

He's the biggest joke on Fox News, which is saying quite a lot since most of Fox News is a joke.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 3:10:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

i think we can broadly agree that historical drift. i've always seen the original impulse of America to be the idea that individuals ought to be able to do what they want, so long as they don't stop someone else doing what they want. In recent decades, perhaps a century or so, those individuals best able to self actualise ended up consolidating that freedom, that power, around the structures they'd built up. To the point where we now have the apparently nonsensical idea that a corporation has the same rights as an individual.

i'm forced to observe that this could be seen as a failed social experiment.

The whole concept of a corporation is that legally it does have the rights of an individual.

What seems to have gotten lost in recent years is that it also has the same responsibilities.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 3:27:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In fact, the term "tyranny of the majority" is exactly what I believe is close to occurring, and "the majority" in this case are people - voters no less - who have a net transfer of wealth from individuals who produce the fruits of society, through the instrument of governmental force, in direct violation of personal sovereignty.

Yes, far better that we transfer the wealth from the middle class and the poor to those that "produce the fruits of our society".

quote:

For example ..."promote the general welfare" ... it is under this concept that the nanny state arose. Do you believe that the founders ever thought of anything such as universal health care, paid for by the government? How about Social Security? Welfare?

Do you think they ever thought of automobiles, space travel, computers?

How do you compare the needs of a rural, agrarian society with the needs of this country today?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 3:54:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The citizens in a representative democracy have an obligation, a duty, to educate themselves and make informed decisions, especially on a matter as grave as choosing whether or not to launch a war. The American public, as a whole, did not do their due diligence, did not meet their responsibility, and if they had they would have arrived at the right conclusions and made the same decision you and I made. Not all of them, but enough of them that this criminal madness could have been prevented. I don't cut 'em any slack - they did not do their jobs as American citizens, and they bear the responsibility for letting that war happen.

Panda, we're on the same page on most issues but this is pure bullshit.

Neo-conservatives like Wolfowitz had written position papers for years in conservative think-tank publications advocating an Iraq invasion.

Whether 9/11 had happened or not we would have invaded Iraq.

What exactly do you think the American public could have done to prevent that?

Look at the public uproar over the initial bailout. Did that "due diligence" have any effect on the outcome?

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 4:11:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

they're making it clear that they're angry about what's happening in their country; but more importantly, they're demonstrating that they don't understand what's happening in their country, and are motivated solely by emotion and not at all by logic. Which is pertinent to the thread in that it calls into question how likely it is that an uninformed populace, driven primarily by emotion, can effect substantial, positive social change.

I think most of them have a pretty good idea what's going on in their country. As for whether or not they can affect social change - positive or not - depends on what what they do now.. An aspect of these tea parties that is important I think is the organizational effort breathed life into an organization. And I've seen a lot of people pumped up about them honestly.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 4:20:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't you have a view of the world?...sure you do...because you do... should I call it a Canadian centric view? A nation that has done nothing to shape the world... A country that is happy for others to protect them... A nation that is successful only because of its proximity to America.

So you think the Solidarity movement in Poland could have succeeded without the support of the US or the weakened state of the Soviets from our intervention? You are not thinking your statements through.

You always accuse me of only thinking in American terms when you do exactly the same thing according to your place of residence. You may think you come off as evenhanded and thoughtful but to me you come off sounding jealous.

Butch

Your post is a perfect example of why many in other countries dislike Americans. A perfect example of why they
think we are arrogant.

By the way, how exactly did the U.S. support the Solidarity movement?

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 4:51:35 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't you have a view of the world?...sure you do...because you do... should I call it a Canadian centric view? A nation that has done nothing to shape the world... A country that is happy for others to protect them... A nation that is successful only because of its proximity to America.

So you think the Solidarity movement in Poland could have succeeded without the support of the US or the weakened state of the Soviets from our intervention? You are not thinking your statements through.

You always accuse me of only thinking in American terms when you do exactly the same thing according to your place of residence. You may think you come off as evenhanded and thoughtful but to me you come off sounding jealous.

Butch

Your post is a perfect example of why many in other countries dislike Americans. A perfect example of why they
think we are arrogant.

By the way, how exactly did the U.S. support the Solidarity movement?

If you had read the post before you would see I was just mimicking phil...he has a way of not being able to take his own medicine.

Then see his post after where I graciously took his rebuttal...if you are going to give it you must be able to take it.

I was expressing a thought without rancor when he says things like..."US-centric view of world events and the ignorance that engenders". then how about .."a rather bad actor who was once out-acted by a monkey" describing an America President... all because I did not agree with him. To me this is why some Canadians are arrogant.

Solidarity would have been easily crushed as the Soviets did other revolts in Eastern Europe in the past. But the constant military and economic pressure of the west weakened them.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/25/2009 4:58:40 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 4:57:21 PM

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FR:

The bomb throwers have arrived in force.

(in reply to rulemylife)

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