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RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:07:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK what the hell is going on here!!!!!... everybody is just too damn polite. Firm are you sick?... maybe nearing the end and want to make amends.. or reading some damn fool book on how to get along?

Come on lets put some life into this discussion.

Butch

hehe ...

As long as we generally ignore the bomb-throwers, there is really no need to get ascerbic with each other.

It's easy to get lost in the forest because of all them damn trees, but right now I'm trying to talk more about the forest ecosystem, than I am about the trees themselves.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:10:08 AM

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From: Dirty Jersey
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As imperfect beings,the best we can do is to strive for perfection.

Not to is to slip back into our dark side.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:10:15 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The true America elected a President who they feel will reflect their view of how America should be.

My vote "We The People"; I felt that was as American as I could get.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:12:44 AM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Well, i applaud your optimism and your faith in your country. i am unable though to applaud your US-centric view of world events and the ignorance that engenders. Reagan had nothing to do with the Berlin Wall falling. That event, and the activities of Solidarity in Poland, had more to do with the USSR falling than any amount of cold war posturing from a rather bad actor who was once out-acted by a monkey...and who colluded with the McCarthy witch-hunt.

The collectivist experiment failed and imploded.....all Reagan did was come along and kick at a maimed leg.

(...well you did say this thread was too polite or something. Happier now?)

Don't you have a view of the world?...sure you do...because you do... should I call it a Canadian centric view? A nation that has done nothing to shape the world... A country that is happy for others to protect them... A nation that is successful only because of its proximity to America.

So you think the Solidarity movement in Poland could have succeeded without the support of the US or the weakened state of the Soviets from our intervention? You are not thinking your statements through.

You always accuse me of only thinking in American terms when you do exactly the same thing according to your place of residence. You may think you come off as evenhanded and thoughtful but to me you come off sounding jealous.

Butch

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:14:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

The recent tea bag silliness is a perfect example: a group of rich people wanted their tax cuts protected, so they whipped up a crowd of about 2,000 people nationwide (about the same size crowd as half a high school football game) to go out and try to scare the Obama administration into keeping the Bush tax cuts... and withdraw the slated middle class cut from ever taking place.

Hmmm... seems your math may be a bit hinky. The tea party in Atlanta (called Southern Thunder) alone drew a crowd of 20,000. Perhaps it's for the best that you can't get funding for your business... with fuzzy math skills, no telling what your books would end up looking like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

All I know is, I've been wanting to get a small business off the ground for over a decade. Yet, I can't raise the capital to do so. Why? Simple:

"The rich" aren't paying their fair share.

What has tax got to do with a bank lending you the money to start up your own business?

Not much, I don't think... other than sour grapes and envy. But it's much easier to blame others than it is to assume responsibility for yourself.

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:21:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Don't you have a view of the world?...sure you do...because you do... should I call it a Canadian centric view? A nation that has done nothing to shape the world... A country that is happy for others to protect them... A nation that is successful only because of its proximity to America.

....yup, stunningly ignorant. Sure you don't work for Fox?

quote:

So you think the Solidarity movement in Poland could have succeeded without the support of the US or the weakened state of the Soviets from our intervention? You are not thinking your statements through.

.......right, and you're always so thoughtful.

quote:

You always accuse me of only thinking in American terms when you do exactly the same thing according to your place of residence. You may think you come off as evenhanded and thoughtful but to me you come off sounding jealous.

...and to me you sound horribly ill-educated about anything that happens outside your own borders. Worse, you appear proud of it.

Now don't make us Canadians come down there and burn down your White House.....again.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:24:26 AM

kdsub

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lol... touche....now to tell you the truth it may not be a bad idea for you to drop in for supper...as you did before... I'd welcome it.

Butch

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:29:28 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

The question I ponder; in the land of “Liberty and Justice for all”, should government have ideals?
Kim

Perhaps not necessarily; but then again I don't think it's necessary for a government to have ideals in order to represent the ideals of the people on behalf of whom it is administering the country.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to cpK69)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:29:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Hmmm... seems your math may be a bit hinky. The tea party in Atlanta (called Southern Thunder) alone drew a crowd of 20,000. Perhaps it's for the best that you can't get funding for your business... with fuzzy math skills, no telling what your books would end up looking like.

Not much, I don't think... other than sour grapes and envy. But it's much easier to blame others than it is to assume responsibility for yourself.

How many were tea baggers and how many were tea party crashers?

Did the tea baggers in Atlanta jeer Huckabee for raising taxes?

Did they jeer Newtie for supporting TARP?

Our were most of the tea baggers,sore losers still blue about Obama`s win?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/25/2009 9:31:01 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:33:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Well Firm...maybe it's time for that hijack i tried to avoid earlier.......

Many people have seen Soviet Russia as a failed social experiment. We could concede good intentions, but it clearly failed. The proof of the pudding etc.....
Is it not possible to see the USA, as originally conceived, in the same way? A failed social experiment, conducted with all good faith, that nevertheless doesn't work?
Let's characterise Soviet Russia as total collectivism. It failed because it didn't recognise the importance of individualism early or fast enough. Let's characterise the original idea of the USA as total individualism. It's failing because it doesn't recognise the importance of collectivism.
Individuals cover a wide range of aptitudes. Some thrive in a cut-throat commmercial climate, while some wither. Some find a home in a regulated economy, while some stifle. The thing is, both have a right to exist. Both are just humans trying to do the best they can, with what they got.
There has to be a balance. A middle way between these two polar opposites that allows all to get mostly what they want. This means that collectivists have to concede the right of individuals to do things the way they want to. It also means individualists have to concede the right of collectivists to do things...er....collectively........and somehow we need to find a way for both these things to co-exist.
Pure freedom, like pure slavery, may be illusory.

Very interesting post, philo.

However, I think you are presenting a false dichotomy.

It isn't about a choice between pure individualism (anarchy) and pure collectivism (communism or Plato's Republic).

The question (in my mind at least) is how can I have the maximum sovereignty of the individual in my life and my society, and what trade-offs to a social order is appropriate in order to achieve that sovereignty?

The drive to collectivism comes from a couple of different places, I think.

First, I think misplaced compassion is part of the genesis. Some people look around, and see inequity, and choose the path of centralized, powerful institutions to attempt to correct them.

A second force to collectivism is less admirable. I think that some people look around, and figure out that how to achieve personal power and wealth is through the use of governmental sanctioned force to bend the will of society so that they can achieve their own personal desires.

The second impulse often uses the arguments and the desires of the "compassionate" to work towards their goals.

The American system was an attempt at both a compromise, and as a way to either harness or blunt the second impulse.

People who look around and see inequity had (and still have) the ability in a society ruled by individualism to band together in "free associations" in order to accomplish (or at least work towards) their goals of alleviating suffering and inequity. Such associations do this by convincing others of the worthiness of their goals and methods and is based on the voluntary participation of the people that band together.

The use of governmental structures to achieve such goals, however admirable those goals, inherently means that force and coercion is used, and the violation of individual sovereignty.

The American system isn't "failing" because individualism has failed. The American system is "failing" because we are more and more accepting of the concepts of collectivism, and going down a similar road that the Soviets have already traveled.

It's not two paths that we are on. I think we may be on the same path. The "failure" of the American system wasn't that it was about individualism. It's failure was that the government and societal structures put into place to protect it were not strong enough, and have eroded over time, so that we seem to be ending up on the same path as the Soviets.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/25/2009 9:36:42 AM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:38:22 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You are angry that people didn't stand up to the government, and didn't somehow prevent what you see as an injustice.

But why should they? We are being trained and taught that "the government will make it right".

So what is the solution? How can we reframe the social and political structure to empower the individual, and remove the ability or inclination of "the government" to act in ways that we find immoral, or antithetic to our ideals?

Or do we?

You don't see any possibility that "the people" will rise up in some fashion, to make this change.

I'm not sure that you aren't correct, and maybe the pot that all us lobsters are in has already heated up enough that we are dinner just waiting to be served.

But I don't think that that is inevitable. I do think that there is a large reservoir of people, and thought in the US that may eventually decide to act, or that conditions may present themselves that will allow them to act.

Firm, I agree with almost everything you say. One thing I want to make clear, though, is that I'm not thinking in terms of certainties. Like you, I'm considering this in terms of likelihoods. I think our only real point of departure is that I think it less likely (a lot less likely) than you that we the people will collectively see the light and coalesce to effect significant change in the way our government conducts its business. In my opinion, the chance is so slight as be almost impossible, whereas you (goodnatured soul that you are) are somewhat less cynical. Usually when I disagree with you, I hope that I turn out to be right and you turn out to be wrong. In this case, I hope that 10 years from now we both look back and see that you've made a complete and utter fool of me.

Er.... on this one issue, that is. Not in general terms. Just in case anyone's planning on keeping score.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:38:52 AM

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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How many were tea baggers and how many were tea party crashers?

Did the tea baggers in Atlanta jeer Huckabee for raising taxes?

Did they jeer Newtie for supporting TARP?

Our were most of the tea baggers,sore losers still blue about Obama`s win?

Does it really matter?

20,000 people showed up at the capitol in Atlanta to protest. That's a far cry from Mar's claim that only 2000 nationwide participated.

Trying to pick apart the motives for the individuals attending is a sad tactic.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 4/25/2009 9:40:40 AM >

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 9:40:44 AM

kdsub

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Firm just to clarify... don't you think Canada, Great Briton, and most of the rest of Europe have gone down that same path before us?

Are you saying they will fail as well because of their social programs?

Butch

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:07:21 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...interesting point. i'd answer by suggesting that in that Land of which you speak, the Government ought to consist of its own citizens. So, yes, it ought to live up to its ideals.....by way of the individuals who make government up living up to those ideals.

I'm having a hard time coming up with the best words… so, please bare with me.

I tend to think, in order to accomplish the goal, government as we know it, could not exist. There are many things that will need to change; and I also, suspect change is coming, though not very confident it will be brought on by “the people”. My personal perspective is that when it starts, it will be in the best interest of many, to abruptly get out of the way.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:15:33 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Remember the country was split right down the middle at both elections of Bush... so there was never the monolithic agreement in his policies you expound. And we were lied to...many times...yes we were mad, scared, and wanting revenge...exactly the feelings I had for my family and myself. The majority of Americans thought, because of Bush, Iraq was part of the terrorist forces and a direct danger to us.

True, the elections were close, but two things - first, the support for the invasion of Iraq was nothing short of monolithic. At one point, 3 out of 4 Americans supported it, which could fairly be called an overwhelming majority in a country that's normally so evenly divided. And second, I'll go back to what i said earlier - the fact that Bush lied to us is a poor excuse for that many people not doing what they needed to do to educate themselves. The information was right there for everyone who cared to look, but only 1 out of 4 people did. The fact that Bush lied is no excuse for believing him, when you had a steady stream of people publically calling attention to the fact that he was lying.

I'm not ignoring the fact that there are a hell of a lot of fine, decent, morally courageous people in the United States. I'm just saying they're in the minority. There's just not enough truly good people here to form enough of a critical mass to effect significant social changes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsubYou have to be proud of America in the last election. Not only did they see through the Republican propaganda but also threw off the chains of racism. I think the future is bright and America is back on the correct course.

I am proud, but not exactly giddy about it. I still think that if the economy had waited just 2 more months to collapse, John McCain would be President today. Remember how close the polls were until mid-September? Remember how almost every poll showed Obama leading by only a couple of percentage points, or even trailing McCain, even though the same polls showed that a large majority of voters overwhelmingly agreed with Obama's positions? I think the only thing that swung the vote toward Obama was that the economy was terrifying enough that for a sufficient number of people, suddenly the idea of spending their old age living in a cardboard box by the railroad tracks and eating dog food out of a can was even scarier than having a spearchucker for a president. Sorry for the crudity, but for a significant number of voters, that's what it came down to. Of course I'm extremely happy that a majority of American votes made the right decision, but I'm not losing sight of the fact that for many of them, it was simply a desperate, terrified act of self-interest.

Don't get me wrong - I'll take it, and give a certain amount of credit for it. But this came extremely close to going the other way, when it should have been a blowout right from the opening bell. And I'm cognizant of the fact that having a black president will have a huge effect on chipping away at the racism that's so pervasive in our society, especially if he does as well as I expect him to do. But it's too early to call this the beginning of a radical paradigm shift. Let's see what the next couple of years brings.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:18:38 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Perhaps not necessarily; but then again I don't think it's necessary for a government to have ideals in order to represent the ideals of the people on behalf of whom it is administering the country.

I think part of the problem is that sometimes we forget, as a piece of land shared by many cultures, thinking in terms of ideals properly won’t be very productive.

Justice is about balance, not equal measure; I think a lot of people confuse the two ideas.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:23:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Firm, I agree with almost everything you say. One thing I want to make clear, though, is that I'm not thinking in terms of certainties. Like you, I'm considering this in terms of likelihoods. I think our only real point of departure is that I think it less likely (a lot less likely) than you that we the people will collectively see the light and coalesce to effect significant change in the way our government conducts its business.

I'm not sure that we really disagree that much.

The only constant is change. I think this is a valid observation.

All nations go through upheavals and change, even "hydraulic empires". The US is certainly a "young nation" in the sense that as a nation, it has existed for only a little over 200 years (even if it is considered one of the most ancient nations in regard to it's form of government).

I mentioned before the thesis that the US has undergone several political upheavals which changed the very definition of what "government" is - the change from the Articles of Confederation, the Civil War and the New Deal are three of them.

Except for the Civil War, these changes have been relatively peaceful, and the next one may well be peaceful as well.

There will be an event, or a series of events which change the environment in which our government and nation operates. It may be that the current economic difficulties continue, and even grow worse; it may be that a series of terrorist attacks are staged and succeed; it may be that an accidental solar EMP destroys much of our electronic infrastructure; it may be that an antibiotic resistant illness devastates our population; it may be that another nation grows to challenge us militarily ...

But these would all be catalysts, not the actual cause of a political re-alignment. Absent such an event, I suspect that you are closer to correct than I am, due to the "hot lobster in a boiling pot" point.

But absent the US growing into something similar to a hydraulic empire, change is almost inevitable. The question is when it will occur, and what will the results be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

In my opinion, the chance is so slight as be almost impossible, whereas you (goodnatured soul that you are) are somewhat less cynical.

eh

... I'm probably the most cynical person I know. It is that cynicism that leads me to believe that things will change, because people will remain people (at least until the Singularity, or the Second Coming).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Usually when I disagree with you, I hope that I turn out to be right and you turn out to be wrong. In this case, I hope that 10 years from now we both look back and see that you've made a complete and utter fool of me.

Er.... on this one issue, that is. Not in general terms. Just in case anyone's planning on keeping score.

What?!! People keep score around here?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:27:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Firm just to clarify... don't you think Canada, Great Briton, and most of the rest of Europe have gone down that same path before us?

Are you saying they will fail as well because of their social programs?

Butch,

Yes, all those nations are on the same road, IMO.

Does that mean that they will fail? Not at all. While people remain people, their society and social contracts and ideological beliefs all differ to one degree or another.

I'm not even saying that America will "fail" - just that I'm concerned that the principal ideals on which America was founded upon (the sovereignty of the individual) has become less and less meaningful to our political and financial ruling class.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:29:00 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How many were tea baggers and how many were tea party crashers?

Did the tea baggers in Atlanta jeer Huckabee for raising taxes?

Did they jeer Newtie for supporting TARP?

Our were most of the tea baggers,sore losers still blue about Obama`s win?

Does it really matter?

20,000 people showed up at the capitol in Atlanta to protest. That's a far cry from Mar's claim that only 2000 nationwide participated.

Trying to pick apart the motives for the individuals attending is a sad tactic.

Well, he's got a point. Unless we understand what their motives really were, and whether they have a valid point to make, there's no significance in how many people showed up. OK, 20,000 people took to the streets to say they're against high taxes and earmark spending. So what? Who isn't? And what's their alternative?

Look, I'm sorry I don't have time to type out a longer response of my own, but here's a link to a piece that does a pretty good job of making the point I'd make if I did - which is that these teabaggers, as well-intentioned as they may have been, were basically a bunch of poorly informed knee-jerk reactionaries who have an appallingly shallow grasp of the issue they think they're addressing, motivated more my emotion than by logic.

quote:

What these simpletons are unwilling to acknowledge is that if you don't cut Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid, are not willing to shrink the armed forces drastically, and don't repudiate our contractual commitment to pay interest on the national debt, you could cut all other federal spending to zero and we still would have a substantial budget deficit.

Link

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: WE ARE AMERICA - 4/25/2009 10:33:14 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Maybe it is just me but I don't think you need worry about the financial ruling class of America. Greed is a very individual characteristic and runs deep in America.

Butch

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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