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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 12:05:07 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

"Sociopath" is one of those incredibly useful words, like "pedophile" or "communist" or "heretic" or "witch".

Sometimes, it even has actual meaning, but that's rarely the purpose for which it's uttered.


Hear, hear!


Nevertheless, once people smell the possibility of a witch-hunt, the genie is out of the bottle, as it were, and any attempt to remind them that these discussions typically say more about us than about the people we're discussing is either ignored, or gets you tarred with the same brush.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 12:09:59 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetiePie26


quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

This man takes control by being everything the submissive could ever of hoped for but then starts to fleece them of there money. He tells them he wants to marry them, spend the rest of his life with them and he has been known for doing this to two different women on different nights of the week. Once he has what he wants he's gone but not before he has found another victim to move in with.
The other thing he did was lie continually about his career, his money, his education, his experiences and of course about where he was yesterday night.
He moves in very wide circles and so his reputation doesn't follow him quickly but this particular sub who has investigated him was persuaded through his control to rid herself of her BDSM circles and for a while she did.


He just sounds like a greedy scammer to me. I've known a few who were lazy and greedy but not sociopaths. Like this one;
A woman met a man online talked for a week on the phone and then moved him in with her in another state. He used her, took her money the usual, and then left her when she started getting suspicious. Well why did her stupid ass take so long to get suspicious? I think if you do dumb shit like move in someone you met online within a week you are a victim, you are asking to be used and I refuse to sit back and put the full blame on the lazy jackass who only took what you laid out in front of him. People need to take responsibility and stop being so damn desperate for attention and a man (or woman). THEN maybe some of these losers would get themselves together. So in the end the fault falls on both in most situations, there are some where the victim was just totally duped, but rarely is that the case, if you choose to ignore blatant red flags no need to come crying about it later.



Yes, perhaps he is just a greedy scammer but then how many greedy scammers have sociopath traits? how would we know? If someone behaves like this repeatedly then its only natural to believe that this person has some sort of personality defect. Either that or he/she is just plain evil. To be honest, any man or woman for that matter that deliberately goes into a relationship to fleece someone of money through lies and deception deserves the title of sociopath. Whatever they are is predatory and they leave victims regardless of what they are.

What if there are no red flags before its too late? what if this guy is an expert in being able to control her mind and his clever wit and charm is convincing? what if she falls in love and throws caution to the wind? We have seen others here that have been sucked in by such characters. From the posts they write I don't get the impression that they are at all dumb. They are just people with emotions that believed and trusted before it was too late.
You don't have to move in with someone to be conned but if moving in with them after a short period is dumb that makes me very dumb indeed. I think most of us are intelligent enough and grown up enough to make and informed choice but we are only human, we can make mistakes!



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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 12:40:18 AM   
allthatjaz


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In some cases a wich hunt is not such a bad thing.
I was reminded yesterday of a woman on the London scene (this goes back a few years)
She was a submissive and she was doing the rounds. When her Dominant of 6 months found out that she was using his credit card he confronted her. She denied adamantly that she had used it but when he said he was bringing in the police she admitted it was her but cried buckets whilst explaining she had hidden debts that she hadn't dare tell him about. During the time she had been with him she had convinced him that she loved him and told him that she was pregnant with twins, miscarried, her step mother had died, she had been adopted and various other things. The relationship went on and he forgave her but became suspicious when various valuable items went missing from his house. Eventually he could take no more and ended it. A few months later he was contacted by a man who apparently had been in a relationship with this woman at the same time. In fact she was sleeping with him when the other man believed she was at her mums funeral. She had done the same to him but the difference in the story was that the babies were his and it was he who had paid for the abortion. Again she had taken money from him by deception.
Over a period of around a year another man was in touch. He told the first one that this woman had come to him after telling him that her dominant was abusive and she feared for her life. He had met her mum on various occasions and she had never said anything about being adopted. She eventually stole from him and the police were called in and he was collecting information from her ex as to truths about this woman.
He decided not to press charges but what he did do was arrange a meeting with her at a local pub on the pretense of sorting things out. During that meeting the other two guys walked in and sat down at the same table and asked her to explain herself.
Perhaps this woman was just cold and calculated but whatever she was, she was clever enough and convincing enough to con three intelligent individuals. What she had not accounted for was the small community in which she was acting in and it was this mistake that brought about her 'witch hunt'.
People such as this deserve to be outed. They wreck and destroy people, they con and manipulate with lies and regardless of 'what' they are, other people need to be protected from them.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 4:56:39 AM   
SlyStone


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(this goes back a few years)



You can go back 50 years and it is still clear that What you seem unable to grasp is that all your little stories have absolutely nothing to do with D/s except that you use the words dominant and submissive. Your hand wringing and warnings would be admirable if they were not empty of any real content and application to the subject at hand. 

There are bad and evil people out there, we. adults that we are, all know this to be true. Being a dominant or a submissive does not mean you are immune to assholes and conversely it does not mean that you check your brain at the dungeon door.

Sorry, but alarmist posts like this are a dime a dozen, and the only purpose they serve is no purpose at all.



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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 5:57:42 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

(this goes back a few years)



You can go back 50 years and it is still clear that What you seem unable to grasp is that all your little stories have absolutely nothing to do with D/s except that you use the words dominant and submissive. Your hand wringing and warnings would be admirable if they were not empty of any real content and application to the subject at hand. 

There are bad and evil people out there, we. adults that we are, all know this to be true. Being a dominant or a submissive does not mean you are immune to assholes and conversely it does not mean that you check your brain at the dungeon door.

Sorry, but alarmist posts like this are a dime a dozen, and the only purpose they serve is no purpose at all.




Ok so lets look at it with a sensible head on.
What does a dominant do? he controls does he not? how far can that control go? well it depends on the submissive but once under his spell, she may feel awkward about doubting him, after all he's the Dominant and he knows whats best for her! Theres a post on the board at the moment about a woman who found out her dominant has been screwing around. Time after time she has been told off for daring to snoop, daring to look through his emails. Subs are not meant to do things like that are they? So if we are suspicious we should just put that suspicion to one side because after all we are just his submissive!!
Im sorry but I know a number of submissive men I could suck right in if thats the way I was inclined. I know that if I wanted to use my dominance to manipulate, then it wouldn't take me long to find a vulnerable enough person to do it with.
Ah but that can happen to anyone, I hear you say. That could happen to Miss Joe Bloggs vanilla and yes your right, it could but then if I am 'that way inclined' why would I bother with wooing a vanilla when I can possibly and far more easily do it with a submissive? Oh and btw I am not saying submissives are that stupid but some will bow quickly to the one they believe to be the one!

As for a female submissive going down this route thats easy too. I have been to many clubs and parties where 'some' dominants will jump through hoops of fire to be able to play with a pretty female. If I were into the art of manipulation then I would choose either a Dominant or a submissive man every time because I believe that I would be far more successful, far more quickly than with a vanilla man who may take ages to get to know.
I am not saying Dominant men are stupid but some, just some, will allow this sort of thing to happen. I have had dominant men that I could wrap round my little finger. If I had wanted to con them then I probably could of done that with ease, so long as I fed there hunger on the whipping bench!

Ok forget the label... in fact forget the sociopath and think for a moment about a con artist. Yes, we could all get paranoid or we could have a better understanding of when the warning bells go off.


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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 7:19:55 AM   
pdv99


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If I can get a word in between all the bickering and pedantry, THANKS to the OP, and those who have posted informative links on here. I never really knew what a sociopath was before. Now I do, and I understand a whole lot more about someone I was in a (vanilla)relationship with for four years - or at least I can put a label on her behaviours, and appreciate that they were not unique or "my fault", but all the classic symptoms of the "Alienated psychopath". And yes, she was dangerous - if not in terms of physical harm, then certainly in emotional and financial contexts.

< Message edited by pdv99 -- 4/28/2009 7:22:22 AM >

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 8:13:42 AM   
LaTigresse


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It's great that some good came of the information tucked between the apparent personal snarking.

A sociopath, ANY sociopath, is a potentially dangerous person. Just as are people with any of several other personality disorders. Being involved in BDSM does not make someone that has these disorders, more or less dangerous AS LONG AS......the rest of us keep our common sense, grown up, heads on straight. But then, that still hasn't a damned thing to do with BDSM. I would venture to say most serial killers didn't use the lure of "you submissive, me dominant" to find their victims.

The danger I see, especially on here, is that we get a story of some poor hapless victim and some horrible evil perpetrator, used to define the dangers of a specific issue. When the reality is that we have zero facts on the situation. Most of us haven't a clue about the person posting, let alone the people in the story. The reality could be that the person telling the story might be a dellusional freak living in their mothers attic, making the whole thing up. Could be, never know, it's only words on a screen. Unfortunately those words are used to perpetuate a potentially imagined scary story, used to get others all worked up, and the shit storm begins.

Then it's, "Soandso said so, so it must be right, any person that says or does xxx is a horror of a person. A sick twisted fuck!!" And you have others that have said or done xxx that know they are not damaged or twisted, still manage to function quite well in civilized society, that become outraged at the gross generalizations, and on and on with the shit storm.

Trained professionals struggle with correct mental illness diagnoses every day. To even begin to place those labels on people, based upon heresay, is rediculous and irresponsible. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 9:41:49 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.



Can you explain that?


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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 9:43:25 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.



Can you explain that?



Flinging labels around like that can affect a person's job, at the very least. 

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 10:07:30 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.




Can you explain that?



Flinging labels around like that can affect a person's job, at the very least. 


Ah ok so did I name and shame anyone? Did I imply that it was someone on this site?
I related a few stories as others on this post have done. No names, addresses, emails or a single clue as to who these people are.
So how is that slanderous?
Other than that it has all been about a character. It has not been about mud slinging or spreading rumours or am I missing something?


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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 10:15:34 AM   
Rainfire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.



Can you explain that?


Slander is the spoken or verbal defamation of a person. Written defamation is called "libel". When someone makes the accusation of "Person X is a sociopath and con man" without proof or evidence other than what someone has said, which could or could not be true, it could affect someone's employment, housing, personal relationships, all sorts of ways. If Person X is in certain professions, it could get them terminated. I've been through a number of background checks professionally and I know that if certain accusations were made, I would have lost my job.

Now, if you want to call me a bitch or asshole, go right ahead. That's expressing a personal opinion. But to slap a potentially damaging label like "sociopath" on someone without a valid professional's diagnosis can get yer ass in deep trouble legally.

See the difference?

Rain, who admits she can be a bitch at times.


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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 10:44:25 AM   
JustStephen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It's great that some good came of the information tucked between the apparent personal snarking.

The reality could be that the person telling the story might be a delusional freak living in their mothers attic, making the whole thing up. Could be, never know, it's only words on a screen. Unfortunately those words are used to perpetuate a potentially imagined scary story, used to get others all worked up, and the shit storm begins.


This feels a bit two faced, complementary and yet angry at the same time. Are you suggesting that all this is a figment of someone's imagination, that this sort of thing couldn't really happen?

Does it matter who the op is, who the specific people discussed are? This post was started to discuss a condition, not individuals as far as I can see. The story is an illustration of what could happen. (Based on reality or not) How does "knowing" the op change your response?

So putting your post aside. From my perspective... I read the articles linked to in this post and the one interesting point of it all was, even if I deny I have any of those traits, one of the traits says the sociopath is likely to deny it. Does that make me a sociopath? The other point that seems consistent in the traits is that a sociopath will dominate women with ease! (9 out of 10 sociopaths are men)

Stephen.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 11:03:00 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.



Can you explain that?



I will explain by fictional example.

My friend subsuzie ( in homage to the dearly departed Domiguy) tells me about this horrible dom she was in a relationship with. All the hidious evil things he said, how mean he was........yada yada yada. "why that man is a sociopathic!"

Two days later I am having lunch with my friend Tonya and tell her about my friend subsuzie and this horrible guy she was seeing, The Eeeeeviiillll Domidong! "The things subsuzie told me about him! It's a good thing you don't know him Tonya, he is a sociopath!!"

Tonya sits there dumbfounded as only Tonya can and says "Domidong? Would that be Domidong Dufus that I have working for me in IT? Just a second I believe I have a photo here on our company website taken at our Christmas party!" As she pulls her laptop out and shows me a photo of my friend subsuzie and the evil....Domidong, smiling drunkenly and quite harmlessly looking, for the camera.

"Oh MY GOD LaT!!! Thank god you told me about him! Why, I've been working with this guy for years. Sometimes he and I are the only two people working late in the whole building. Now I know about him, I will find a way to get rid of him during the next round of layoffs."

Lawsuit written all over that, several different ways. And that is just one example. All because subsuzie didn't like something Domidong did, said, acted and decided to make herself judge jury and psychologist. And I was stupid enough to pass it along.

And no, you didn't name names. I wasn't specifically talking about your exact words in this thread. I was thinking bigger picture. The dangers of slapping such dramatic and potentially horrid labels on people without any more evidence than gossip.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 11:05:46 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Trained professionals struggle with correct mental illness diagnoses every day. To even begin to place those labels on people, based upon heresay, is rediculous and irresponsible. Not to mention, potentially slanderous.
Thank you, LadyT!!!

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 11:07:55 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It's great that some good came of the information tucked between the apparent personal snarking.

The reality could be that the person telling the story might be a delusional freak living in their mothers attic, making the whole thing up. Could be, never know, it's only words on a screen. Unfortunately those words are used to perpetuate a potentially imagined scary story, used to get others all worked up, and the shit storm begins.


This feels a bit two faced, complementary and yet angry at the same time. Are you suggesting that all this is a figment of someone's imagination, that this sort of thing couldn't really happen?

Does it matter who the op is, who the specific people discussed are? This post was started to discuss a condition, not individuals as far as I can see. The story is an illustration of what could happen. (Based on reality or not) How does "knowing" the op change your response?

So putting your post aside. From my perspective... I read the articles linked to in this post and the one interesting point of it all was, even if I deny I have any of those traits, one of the traits says the sociopath is likely to deny it. Does that make me a sociopath? The other point that seems consistent in the traits is that a sociopath will dominate women with ease! (9 out of 10 sociopaths are men)

Stephen.



Oh for crying out loud. I do not know the OP at all. And no, I am definitely not angry. No on here has the ability to make me angry. I haven't been really angry in years. Okay, two, and trust me, the two people I was angry with paid the price and are still paying.

I was illustrating a point. The possibility of the person in the story being a crazy evil dangerous loon is only as potentially believable as the person telling the story. We cannot know because all we have are pixels on a screen.

As for the point ( dangerous sociopathic dominants ) , I believe I covered that also, as have others, multiple times.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to JustStephen)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 11:29:29 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It's great that some good came of the information tucked between the apparent personal snarking.

The reality could be that the person telling the story might be a delusional freak living in their mothers attic, making the whole thing up. Could be, never know, it's only words on a screen. Unfortunately those words are used to perpetuate a potentially imagined scary story, used to get others all worked up, and the shit storm begins.


This feels a bit two faced, complementary and yet angry at the same time. Are you suggesting that all this is a figment of someone's imagination, that this sort of thing couldn't really happen?

Does it matter who the op is, who the specific people discussed are? This post was started to discuss a condition, not individuals as far as I can see. The story is an illustration of what could happen. (Based on reality or not) How does "knowing" the op change your response?

So putting your post aside. From my perspective... I read the articles linked to in this post and the one interesting point of it all was, even if I deny I have any of those traits, one of the traits says the sociopath is likely to deny it. Does that make me a sociopath? The other point that seems consistent in the traits is that a sociopath will dominate women with ease! (9 out of 10 sociopaths are men)

Stephen.

all of us, on any given day, will present with one (i suspect more) traits of a mental illness/personality disorder. Does that mean we have the illness/disorder? Of course not. It is the entire package, behaviors ongoing over time, that the health care professional looks at to make the final diagnosis. And it is a diagnosis made after a significant amount of time with the patient as well as talking with their family/SO/friends.

It seems we as a society are rather free with tossing around terms that can ruin a reputation. Rather than saying someone is goofy for their odd behavior, we will use terms such as sociopath, psychopath, etc.

Look at it this way...you work with Joe Smith. He presents with a bad cough. He misses work, goes to see a doctor, etc. In discussing Joe Smith, would you feel comfortable stating he has lung cancer? I seriously doubt you would. You are not a doctor and know basically nothing about his illness.

Yet...some think nothing of branding someone with a diagnosis for a mental illness.


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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 11:44:35 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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I will now try to distill my view on this down:

1. Many people have had bad experiences in their lives, for various (and generally personally valid) reasons. It's bad form to belittle these bad experiences; we've all experienced pain, and we all know what it's like when memories are still fresh and raw and bleeding with emotion.

2. Many people feel very, very strongly about these experiences, for various (and generally personally valid) reasons. It is natural to want to express these experiences to others.

3. Many people feel that the overwhelming intensity of their experiences cannot be expressed, except through words that share that level of intensity. When someone has been hurt - and hurt badly - it is natural to villainize the source of the pain, to a level proportional to the intensity of the pain itself. And some people feel things (including pain) very intensely, which is generally what makes them desirable and worthy companions in the first place.

4. Thus, it is natural to turn to words like "sociopath", or "pedophile", or "witch", because how else could I have been hurt so badly? And often, it even makes sense - she completely ignored my feelings, so she must be incapable of understanding feelings. He lied to me, so he must be a consummate liar. He manipulated me - me! - so he must be a master manipulator.

But! As natural as these tendencies are, they're often dangerous. They lock us into one narrow way of seeing our past, and prevent us from alternate, and potentially more useful interpretations. No one is an expert on their own memories. Especially when emotions get involved, it is impossible to evoke an accurate account of one's past. That's part of the purpose of emotions - to color and distort memory, so that we encode it into fast, responsive "lessons", instead of being paralyzed with indecision every time we see a lion. It's evolutionary biology: being terrified of lions makes you react faster to them when you see one. Similarly, being terrified of human predators, hopefully, makes you react faster to them when you see one. The problem with human predators is that they are far more clever than lions, and can exploit the very cognitive tricks that were designed to deal with predation.

The point being made, here, is that concepts like "sociopath" (and "pedophile" and "witch" and what-have-you) have rather narrow useful definitions, and a huge no-man's-land of "gray area" around them. And the "gray area" is so vast, that when you throw the labels around, you're far more likely to wind up in the no-man's-land than to arrive at an actually useful set of conclusions.

"I feel manipulated, and it really, really hurt. It feels like he always played everyone."

"I feel lied to, and I feel like he lied to others, and now I have so much trouble trusting anything anyone says."

"I feel treated like an object. I feel violated, like my consent was never considered."

All of these things are unequivocally true statements, describing someone's experiences. They are very useful for communicating to others how you feel, and they're even useful for communicating to yourself exactly what's going on inside you. Sometimes it helps to hear yourself say these things.


"He's a master manipulator; he manipulates everyone."

"He lies so much, he can't tell the difference between the truth and a lie."

"He has no concept that anyone but himself is a person."

All of these things are very colorful, emotional interpretation of those same experiences. They lock you into one narrow view of reality, and constrain you to a thin slice of possible solutions.

Yes, there are actual sociopaths out there. But most people aren't hollow, soulless monsters - they're just emotionally clumsy, short-sighted, and terrified that they'll be taken advantage of, or terrified that their needs won't get met. So they do stupid things, and they hurt each other, and they hurt themselves. And it's very, very sad to watch. But then we get convinced that they're monsters, because we're also emotionally clumsy, and short-sighted, and terrified that we'll be taken advantage of, or that our needs won't get met. So we do stupid things, and we hurt each other, and we hurt ourselves. And we propagate the cycle. And we forget to ask: "is calling this girl a sociopath expanding my options more than it's limiting them?" - because ultimately, it doesn't matter what someone "is"; it only matters how we react to, and grow from, our experiences. We can obsess over others or we can learn something about ourselves.

The wheel of samsara needs hands to crank it. We can let go if we wish.

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 4/28/2009 11:45:35 AM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 11:48:24 AM   
aravain


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I thought it was only libel or slander if the person knew or had evidence to the contrary of what they say? An uninformed opinion that hurts you in some way isn't libel, isn't it defamation or some such?

The point being: if someone actually thinks it about someone without evidence to the contrary it's not technically slanderous or libel...

(in reply to Rainfire)
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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 12:02:44 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

The point being made, here, is that concepts like "sociopath" (and "pedophile" and "witch" and what-have-you) have rather narrow useful definitions, and a huge no-man's-land of "gray area" around them. And the "gray area" is so vast, that when you throw the labels around, you're far more likely to wind up in the no-man's-land than to arrive at an actually useful set of conclusions.
a gray area in terms of...what? A ruined reputation? Parents fearful of allowing their children to play with the children of the one unfairly labeled? Passed over for deserved promotions at work? Ostracized by others? All because some blabbermouth states a diagnosis he has no business stating?

And as far as a medical diagnosis by a trained professional, i would hardly say it is a narrowly useful definition. Whereas it is common knowledge that medicine is (still) an inexact science, a diagnosis is a beginning for treatment.

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 4/28/2009 12:07:14 PM >


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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/28/2009 12:05:48 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

I thought it was only libel or slander if the person knew or had evidence to the contrary of what they say? An uninformed opinion that hurts you in some way isn't libel, isn't it defamation or some such?

The point being: if someone actually thinks it about someone without evidence to the contrary it's not technically slanderous or libel...


Perhaps in your court system but not so here. Here, you had damned well better have more proof than the hysterical blather of a former lover.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/28/2009 12:13:33 PM >


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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to aravain)
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