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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/29/2009 10:50:44 PM

LATEXBABY64

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there is a lot of truth to what the op says I guess its just one of those things that some you will have to go through to get the point just telling someone about it never works out the way it is suppose to

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/30/2009 5:53:49 AM

Rainfire

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That is weird... Some posts I read last night on this thread are gone, just gone. They didn't strike me as something that would be moderated so maybe there was a glitch?

And latexbaby, I get the point that slapping labels unjustly on people just because you don't like something they've done or said is not right. In my personal situation, while Lumus identifies Himself as a sociopath based on HIS definition (remember, there have been a number of different definitions mentioned on the thread) I'm not sure He'd meet a clinical diagnosis. Not everyone is a victim for Him, though if they display stupidity or ignorance badly enough, He's more than willing to make them a target of His mockery. *chuckles* If I choose to love and stay with Him knowing Him as well as I do, well, then I'm not a victim, am I? As I mentioned in my first post, I have my own sociopathic tendencies. Doesn't mean that I am one however. I've been through a lot in my life and I don't broadcast it, though I don't mind discussing some of it if it's pertinent to the conversation. Otherwise, it's nobody's business. What happens with Lumus and I will be life, either we make it as a couple or we don't. Given that over 50% of first time marriages end in divorce, and last I heard, the stats on second marriages was even higher, around 75-80%, we have enough of a battle ahead of us. I've never seen stats on D/s relationships and failure though.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/30/2009 7:36:19 AM

LATEXBABY64

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it is not about who does what it is about what you do with you that is all that matters you can be great or you can be shit
it is when we run around with blinders on we are bound to crash into the big wall of truth and reality just the simplicty of things

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/30/2009 8:15:08 AM

allthatjaz

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Naming and shaming someone is not my thing. For a start its a risky business, probably not true and provable and just causes a whole heap of unnecessary trouble.
As for labels, well we could call anything a label... Dom, sub, slave, switch for starters... I prefer to call them navigation points.
If someone came to me and said 'So and So is a really callous bastard' I would probably take no notice. I am known to form my own opinion of people and I don't need someone elses scorn to form that opinion. If someone came to me and said 'so and so is a sociopath' I would say 'is that a confirmed diagnosis?' and if the answer was no then I would ignore them, if yes then I would ask for proof.

If on the other hand I was to form a relationship with someone who repeatably showed many traits of this condition, then what I would understand is that I probably can't change them, can't make them better and can't keep trying to make everything right. I would hopefully have enough information to protect myself.
We can argue that we are all adults and make our own informed choices but that doesn't explain the wives that live in fear of a violent husband or a man of a violent wife for that matter. Like it or not there are victims in this world and many of them are adults.
This thread could make people paranoid or over suspicious but so could the suggestion that all women train in martial arts (or carry a fire arm) so they can protect them selves when walking home alone. This thread does not say 'be suspicious of everyone' it just says 'This can happen, this condition is real and if someone is lying, cheating, stealing from you, manipulating your every move and bullying you, then it may be that its not just because he/she is a bastard.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/30/2009 8:43:03 AM

RealSub58

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I stayed away from reading the OP and finally did so. It's a strong, seriously ill diagnosis we are not professional enough to hang about someone's neck. These people are not restricted to the label dominant They need help, but mostly they don't realize it, sosociety is set upon by these psychosocially medicallyneedy people and thus, some in society become victims Lions in lambs clothing.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/30/2009 9:14:22 AM

Rainfire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

it is not about who does what it is about what you do with you that is all that matters you can be great or you can be shit
it is when we run around with blinders on we are bound to crash into the big wall of truth and reality just the simplicty of things

And I've considered that, latexbaby. I'm reasonable enough (I hope, some may disagree with me though) that I took a lot into consideration before moving ahead with the relationship. It wasn't an easy call, not because of the "sociopath" label but more the distance initially involved. 2300 miles is nothing to sneeze at, add in a totally different country and it wasn't easy. Lumus can come across as a very hard and harsh Man at times but He also is the most loving, gentle, patient Man I've met. It may not be apparent to others but I see it daily. It's because of our intimate, caring relationship that I don't believe He fits the stereotypical "sociopath". It's how He is with His son, loving, patient, caring and strict, that I don't think He fits the stereotype. He does fit His own definition though. I realize that and see His viewpoint. I also see the Man i love, with all His strengths and faults. *shrugs* Yep, I get silly and romantic about Him but also realistic. :)

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 4/30/2009 11:36:49 PM

MistressDolly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

He is expert at table turning to make the consequences of his behavior the responsibility of his victim

I know a male dominant who, on the surface, possesses characteristics similar to sociopathic or anti-social personality disorders. He searches out his "victims" (his words) and uses all the Seducer tactics on them in order to gain their trust: the mirroring technique, the empathetic and understanding listener, etc. But he secretly hates and detest them (submissive women) and considers them weak and manipulative. He admits to preying on women who seem vulnerable, low self-esteemed. It can be hard to decipher a good sadist from a bad sadist. It would do submissive women good to pay very close attention to who their submitting to when looking for a sadistic dom. As chamberqueen said:

"It is truly frightening how charming many sociopaths can be. They enjoy manipulation and are very talented at it. It can be very hard to see through one ..."

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 5/1/2009 1:43:16 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen
My thoughts... Someone who is mature, socially well adjusted and experienced in people and relationships (in the broadest sense) could interpret the actions of someone else's perceived sociopath as a individual lacking in social skills.

Stephen

Or possibly even more dangerously, they'll correctly judge that there is something abnormal about the individual's social skills and use that to draw completely the wrong conclusion.

A very dear friend of mine has Asperger Syndrome. So, in his case, the 'signs' like not understanding other people's emotions might well register. Largely he's taught himself how people react in social situations by rote.

And because of that, he can come across as quite 'cold'. Mainly with people he doesn't know very well. It's because he's having to analyse everything before reacting to it.

If someone had a basic knowledge of the symptoms of sociopathy, it's entirely possible that they could get the wrong end of the stick completely.

At best, he'd be very offended. Completely understandably. Because it would be entirely incorrect. (He actually cares about people a lot, even though he doesn't always understand them). But also because he's actually put a hell of a lot of work into teaching himself social skills, to the point where he can now deal with irony and sarcasm.

And that's the best case scenario. The kind of misguided diagnosis we're talking about could cause him serious problems at work, particuarly as he's a paramedic and it's obviously vital patients trust and feel comfortable with him.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 5/1/2009 2:28:35 AM

allthatjaz

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I have lived and worked amongst people with Aspergers syndrome/Autism and I have been very involved in Aspergers/Autism in adults awareness.
When I first read about the sociopath, I agree that some Asperger traits could be confused with that of a Sociopath but the more I read, the more I understood there was a world of difference. There are three main traits with Autism and that are evident on all spectrums from 1 to 10.
1. Social communication
2. Social imagination
3.Social interaction
They often struggle to maintain friendships because of the lack of spacial awareness and may often not seem interested in what another person has to say.
From what I have read, a sociopath can make friends easily because they can con there way in. they are often (according to open medical information) the life and soul of the party and that the three main points above would be done with ease. someone with Aspergers would not understand how to con and that is not because they are not intelligent, many are brilliant but because with this condition it is very difficult for them to understand other peoples thoughts or predict what will happen next.

I am going out for dinner today with a very dear friend who has aspergers and although this person is super intelligent I will have to remind him not to come over too aloof with the waiters (just in case they spit in his food) and to get him into a conversation I will have to pick a topic that he is an expert in. Knowing this person, I don't liken any of his personality to that of a sociopath.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 5/1/2009 2:33:15 AM >

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 5/1/2009 3:23:34 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I agree that some Asperger traits could be confused with that of a Sociopath but the more I read, the more I understood there was a world of difference.

Absolutely. And that's my worry. It's not that I don't think you've done the research on the subject. But if we start letting psychological diagnosises stand when they're done by people who aren't trained professionals, I think we're on a dangerous path. Because I don't trust anybody who might try to do so to have done as much research as you.

So I really think the possible consequences of doing so far outweigh any benefits. Particuarly as I think you can get the same rough effect by describing someone's ex as a "manipulative wanker", which does the job and is much more obviously opinion.

quote:

I am going out for dinner today with a very dear friend who has aspergers and although this person is super intelligent I will have to remind him not to come over too aloof with the waiters (just in case they spit in his food) and to get him into a conversation I will have to pick a topic that he is an expert in.

My friend's actually heavily involved in the geek subculture.

As he points out, highly intelligent people with abnormal social skills don't stick out as much there.

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 5/1/2009 6:55:45 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I agree that some Asperger traits could be confused with that of a Sociopath but the more I read, the more I understood there was a world of difference.

Absolutely. And that's my worry. It's not that I don't think you've done the research on the subject. But if we start letting psychological diagnosises stand when they're done by people who aren't trained professionals, I think we're on a dangerous path. Because I don't trust anybody who might try to do so to have done as much research as you.

So I really think the possible consequences of doing so far outweigh any benefits. Particuarly as I think you can get the same rough effect by describing someone's ex as a "manipulative wanker", which does the job and is much more obviously opinion.

quote:

I am going out for dinner today with a very dear friend who has aspergers and although this person is super intelligent I will have to remind him not to come over too aloof with the waiters (just in case they spit in his food) and to get him into a conversation I will have to pick a topic that he is an expert in.
My friend's actually heavily involved in the geek subculture.

As he points out, highly intelligent people with abnormal social skills don't stick out as much there.

Apoocalypso, You obviously know an amount about Aspergers but have you read up about Sociopaths?
I have been with Aspergers on many levels when integrating with people who don't know or understand the condition and although I have heard naive people calling them wankers (because they can tend to get into other peoples space) I have never heard the word manipulative on anyones lips. From my experience, I believe that the last person in the world that would, let alone could manipulate a situation is someone with Aspergers.
Wives, husbands, girlfriends and boyfriends that have an undiagnosed Aspergic partner will usually seek out medical help in a short space of time because of pure frustration. They don't go to experts because they are be conned, robbed, lied to or abused but because their partner is not able to relate, understand when they are getting in the way, or just appear to be living within there own bubble and perhaps appear to have no or an odd sense of humor.

At the end of the day a bastard is a bastard weather he is a diagnosed sociopath or not. Anyone who knowingly robs, abuses and lies to a partner is not a person we want in our lives. Theres one big difference though... A simply abusive bastard can change his/her ways... a sociopath cant without very specific medical counceling and most never get that far because they wont admit there is anything wrong.
I also want to add to this that this is only from what I have bee reading. Many of the sources are from direct medical professionals, some are just experiences. I know little about it but understand a lot more than I did a few weeks ago.
This is not about people that go on to cold bloodidly murder but about a certain type of person that becomes an expert in destructive manipulation.

I have to add that I don't know or heard of (unless you include terets) anyone with Aspergers that is abusive within a relationship.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 5/1/2009 6:58:49 AM >

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 5/1/2009 2:21:41 PM

angeldmort

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quote:

I have been with Aspergers on many levels when integrating with people who don't know or understand the condition and although I have heard naive people calling them wankers (because they can tend to get into other peoples space) I have never heard the word manipulative on anyones lips.

Which is exactly the point of the entire discussion - manipulation. INTENT. Aspies can be difficult, but it's not intentional.
Rat Bastards may have intent to be jerks, but they are still capable of compassion and empathy, even if they choose to ignore them.
Even the most evil asshole will at some point feel something for something else, even if it's only their dog. They recognize that other being have feelings and have the ability to care for others.
A true sociopath doesnt, and can't. Anyone interacting with them is depenent on what is good for them being in line with whatever the sociopath wants, or having great enough consequence that the fear of punishment is too great. And even then, at any moment, there is the risk that a whim may be too much, and tip the balance.

"I have a dislike for words like sociopath and the little box that it conveniently puts a person into. It is automatically assumed that the person is a bad one and that they should be avoided at all costs. "
Well.. yeah. Why would anyone choose to interact with someone they know will abuse them? I don't know much about the Lifestyle yet, but I do know that it requires even more trust than a vanilla relationship, by virtue of it's nature. A sub is placing themselves entirely in the hands of their Dom, for whatever limited space. If you realize that this person has no interest in your well being, you can't trust them to respect a safe word, can you?
This is not a word used because so and so said something mean. It's used to describe someone dangerous, proven over a long time, by many purposeful and intentional abuses.
"Someone who is mature, socially well adjusted and experienced in people and relationships (in the broadest sense) could interpret the actions of someone else's perceived sociopath as a individual lacking in social skills. "
No. A mature, socially well adjusted person should reconize the difference between a gauche misstep, and an intentional attempt to manipulate. A lie is a lie, not a mistake. A strong reaction can't be an excuse for dishonesty.

"If on the other hand I was to form a relationship with someone who repeatably showed many traits of this condition, then what I would understand is that I probably can't change them, can't make them better and can't keep trying to make everything right."
Exactly. Which is the danger. By not knowing the red flags, we make it possible for them. Information is crucial.
"We wouldn't turn a deaf ear or a blind eye to any other information on any number of topics to educate ourselves, so why is everyone acting like it's politically incorrect to acknowledge and speak about mental disorders, and how or if they might apply to wiitwd?""What does a dominant do? he controls does he not? how far can that control go?"
Actually, this is EXACTLY why I am here. It would be immensely easier to tell a newcomer that 'oh, well, this is the way it is supposed to be' and never be questioned. Abuse is easier and can be more damaging here-the need for clear boundaries and information is more important than it would be in vanilla life, as there is greater risk than in vanilla life. The idea of a relationship that potentially offers a nearly unlimited control over another person would obviously draw sociopaths and rat bastards in swarms. To think otherwise would be like wearing blinders.

< Message edited by angeldmort -- 5/1/2009 2:54:26 PM >

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RE: The dangers of a sociopath dominant - 5/2/2009 8:08:28 AM

LATEXBABY64

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i have ran across some scarry people in my life some are not so apparent but do understand patterns of behavior it can and may save your life

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