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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 3:51:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Good point, Firm. I guess Obama's the new leader of the HORRIBLY evil, rotten United States military... fully equivalent to Osama Bin Laden in the minds of certain people on the far, far, FARRRR left.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes, because sending drones to bomb the shit out of civilian populations is so much more noble.

http://www.mediamouse.org/news/2009/04/us-drones-kill-687-pakistan-civilians.php

Interesting.

Was the count before or after Obama's latest strikes in Pakistan?

Firm

Point out one poster who has drawn such a correlation Sanity...please just one!

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 3:51:44 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes, let's just draw the line over the dead women and children killed by our missiles (noticed how they're NEVER talked about on the mainstream national media, hmm?). They're only Moozlems after all.

Assuming that is true ...does that make the others any less of a terrorist?

Butch

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 3:53:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes, let's just draw the line over the dead women and children killed by our missiles (noticed how they're NEVER talked about on the mainstream national media, hmm?). They're only Moozlems after all.

Assuming that is true ...does that make the others any less of a terrorist?

Butch

I'm much more interested in how many future terrorist's such events create?

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 3:59:42 PM

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=====Zoom, hmmm?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Point out one poster who has drawn such a correlation Sanity...please just one!

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 4:04:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Unfortunately there are no "clean" wars...nor it would seem "clean"strikes.The innocent often die no matter the ideology of the bomb thrower.
We in the west(well certainly in the United States)have the luxury of a modern military...so we can delude ourselves that we make every attempt to avoid the loss of innocent lives.This is nothing more than a delusion....we ,like all others involved in conflict make value judgements as a matter of course...this high value target measured against that many collateral victims.
We tend to think of these "judgements" as more civilised than those of the terrorist...and I have no doubt we are.But playing Devil's Advocate here for a minute......what if we were stripped of all our advantages....The technological advantages we enjoy stripped away in a blink of an eye.Reduced to abject poverty in an instant......what would we be capable of?

Mike,

It certainly is an interesting hypothetical, and perhaps worthy of a thread all of its own.

However, I do see some convoluted logic in your setup to the question:

Unfortunately there are no "clean" wars...nor it would seem "clean"strikes.

True, and accurate statement.

The innocent often die no matter the ideology of the bomb thrower.

True, and accurate statement.

We in the west (well certainly in the United States)have the luxury of a modern military...

True, and accurate statement.

...so we can delude ourselves that we make every attempt to avoid the loss of innocent lives. This is nothing more than a delusion....

These statements I have difficulty with.

Do you mean we do not make an honest attempt to avoid unnecessary loss of innocent life? I believe we take more measures, and risk more treasure and lives to reduce "collateral damage" more than any other society or military in the world, in history. Certainly, sometimes we screw it up, or fail to follow our best instincts. But those exceptions certainly highlight that fact that our normal procedure in this type of combat is not to be indiscriminate in our killing.

... we ,like all others involved in conflict make value judgements as a matter of course...this high value target measured against that many collateral victims.

True, and accurate statement.

We tend to think of these "judgements" as more civilised than those of the terrorist...and I have no doubt we are.

Again, a true, and accurate statement.

So why the whole "delusion" stuff? Am I missing something?

Firm

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 4:04:16 PM

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So, according to Newspeak, Americans cause terrorism - and not Islamic Fundamentalists.

Ignoring them makes them fade from reality, but killing them and interrupting their training funds and facilities makes them stronger...

And of course - in Newspeak, 9/11 was a non-event.

It never happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I'm much more interested in how many future terrorist's such events create?

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 4:06:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Is Al-qaeda truly morally equivalent to the Continental Congress of 1700's America?

I think not.

How about Alpha 66 then? Or the Contras? Or Pinochet? Or the 1980's Mujahideen (very similar ideological position to Al-qaeda, apart from they were fighting the Soviet Union).

To be clear, I have no time for Al-qaeda at all. But I don't see why those groups are any less morally objectionable. Or their funders.

(I'm only focusing on US backed groups because that's the context of this discussion. The US absolutely isn't the only country who's never been involved in funding terrorism, in fact I think you'd be hard pressed to think of any country that hasn't).

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 4:09:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, according to Newspeak, Americans cause terrorism - and not Islamic Fundamentalists.

Ignoring them makes them fade from reality, but killing them and interrupting their training funds and facilities makes them stronger...

And of course - in Newspeak, 9/11 was a non-event.

It never happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I'm much more interested in how many future terrorist's such events create?

Please Sanity work with me here...is a child who has lost his parents to an American air strike less or more likely to answer the call to holy war.
Now you can respond with some pithy liuttle comeback if you like....but try not to twist the gist of my posts beyond recognition.
By the way how many new recruits did 9/11 inspire to take the oath?

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 4:15:16 PM

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Firm the delusion in is the cleanliness of it...
The delusion is that if the opportunity arose an obscene price in innocent blood would be paid to bag OBL.
The delusion is that we go to the pains to avoid civilian death due to our inherrant "goodness".Technology allows us to be so noble...again as I posed in my first post would we be so noble if we were fighting for our way of life with less material advantage?

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 4:17:13 PM

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Your little pet theory might work in a vacuum, mike - however, Al-qaeda is busy causing more death and mayhem on the ground wherever they are on purpose than we ever can through collateral damage while fighting them. Ask yourself - how would you like to try to survive under Taliban rule. You'd probably rejoice if the Americans hit them...

I am sure that many of those who are killed or injured while witnessing our attacks on Al-qaeda operatives are near enough to those cruel bastards to know exactly why we're doing what we can to kill them.

These aren't heaven's most beautiful angels we're killing, mike. They're not cute, fuzzy little bunnies and kittens and puppies... they are Al-Qaeda.

Al-qaeda is inspiring Muslims to fight against them wherever they are for the same reasons they inspired patriotic Americans to fight against them when some of them came over here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Please Sanity work with me here...is a child who has lost his parents to an American air strike less or more likely to answer the call to holy war.
Now you can respond with some pithy liuttle comeback if you like....but try not to twist the gist of my posts beyond recognition.
By the way how many new recruits did 9/11 inspire to take the oath?

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/5/2009 4:28:47 PM >

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:07:22 PM

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Must be nice to see everything through such rose colored glasses.
Do you really beleive the orphans or the parents of the dead make such value judgements....I beleive these people learn to hate...and we happen to be ,from their point of view the most likely target for that hate.
I am not making an argument based on relative righteousness of the conflicting set of beliefs,just stating an immutable fact......the more pain we inflict ....the more resentment we create against us.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:26:11 PM

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Rose colored glasses?

That's funny. You really believe that anyone who fails to equate America, American soldiers, and American leaders and American citizens to the Taliban and Al-qaeda are wearing rose colored glasses???

Ah well, mike. At least you've picked the proper thread to try to make such claims... I've got to give you that.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:32:44 PM

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And again you draw false conclusions...where is the equation ,far less a moral equation in any of my posts.
There is only one of us drawing such comparisons and it is you.I am simply commenting on human nature,if you fail to be able to recognise the truth in that...I can't help you.
Those that lose loved ones to American bombs hate just as well as those that lose loved ones to IED's...not that hard a concept Sanity...you just have to remove the glasses and look.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:37:54 PM

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We dig wells, we distribute food and medicine. We build schools and hospitals, soccer fields, canals and roads. What does the Taliban do? They stone girls for going to school, widows for venturing out to try to obtain needed supplies for their children. They destroy, poison and rule through threats, fear, violence and ignorance...

Yet some Liberals see absolutely no difference. They can see absolutely no good in the world, and absolutely no evil... a fact that is being almost perfectly illustrated here in this very thread.

The premise to Kirata's thread "How Modern Liberals Think" seems to be fully proven out here.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:41:32 PM

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Our bombs are falling on terrorists, mike. Where is the equivalence to what the Taliban and Al-qaeda do in that. We seek out militants who are at war with us, they seek out civilians to terrorize and to kill.

And apparently you need a gentle reminder that the validity of kitten's link is very questionable...

What was that, media mouse? Mouse media? MickeyResearch.com?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And again you draw false conclusions...where is the equation ,far less a moral equation in any of my posts.
There is only one of us drawing such comparisons and it is you.I am simply commenting on human nature,if you fail to be able to recognise the truth in that...I can't help you.
Those that lose loved ones to American bombs hate just as well as those that lose loved ones to IED's...not that hard a concept Sanity...you just have to remove the glasses and look.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:44:38 PM

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You keep hitting the same note.....and a sour one at that.
Let me try this one more time...I am not commenting,I repeat,not commenting on the relative value or inherent goodness of our way as opposed to their way.
All I'm saying is they grieve for their losses with the same emotions we do.They hate for wrongs they "perceive" done to them much as we do.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:48:06 PM

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How many innocent civilians have been butchered by drones in Pakistan? None?

Edited to add link... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090410/ts_nm/us_afghanistan_violence_2

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/5/2009 5:50:51 PM >

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:53:19 PM

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And that's why we build hospitals, airlift food to them every time they have an earthquake, tsunami, or hiccup. You have no concept of how much we put into foreign aid, do you?

And we try hard to kill only the ones who we absolutely have to... I'm arguing against your obvious premise (a little further back in the thread) that we kill indiscriminately, and for little or no reason at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

You keep hitting the same note.....and a sour one at that.
Let me try this one more time...I am not commenting,I repeat,not commenting on the relative value or inherent goodness of our way as opposed to their way.
All I'm saying is they grieve for their losses with the same emotions we do.They hate for wrongs they "perceive" done to them much as we do.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:54:31 PM

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Again with this equivalence nonsence..

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 5:56:35 PM

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So kitten - do you honestly feel that that an article or even a collection of articles such as that one proves that the United States is morally equivalent to Al-Qaeda, and their sidekicks the Taliban?

Or what is your point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How many innocent civilians have been butchered by drones in Pakistan? None?

Edited to add link... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090410/ts_nm/us_afghanistan_violence_2

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