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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 8:26:06 PM

Sanity

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I don't see how any government so powerful that it could and would crush every independent spirit existing on the planet could possibly have an ounce of good in it.

But I respect your opinion, and I recognize that you mean well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't know about no countries, but the disappearance of the nation state would be a wonderful thing.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 10:02:59 PM

caught

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I don't see how any government so powerful that it could and would crush every independent spirit existing on the planet could possibly have an ounce of good in it.

But I respect your opinion, and I recognize that you mean well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't know about no countries, but the disappearance of the nation state would be a wonderful thing.

If the nation state could be replaced by Kink.com, that would be ideal.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/5/2009 11:22:07 PM

CruelNUnsual

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I doubt he even knows what "quaint" means in the context of the memos.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 6:19:50 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
The Taliban are heavily influenced by Islamic Fundamentalism, which has been around a lot longer than the United States. The United States helped Muslims in Afghanistan repel Soviet expansionism, sure - and there is no reason whatever to be ashamed of that. And what are we doing in Afghanistan now... we're spending fortunes there, trying to give the people there a hand up (which is good policy).

The sooner the people there are educated and wealthy enough to join us in our current century the better for everyone.

The question of shame isn't really productive in this situation I think. It's more a question of whether the old geopolitical tactic of "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is counterproductive. And I think that Afghanistan is a very good example that it isn't. Because while you're right that Islamic fundamentalism has been around for longer than the USA, the Taliban spring very much from the Afghanistan Mujahideen, who were undoubtably funded by the USA and Pakistan.

And that's where it comes down to the previous question of freedom fighters versus terrorists. Because when exactly do we pinpoint the change between Afghan fundamentalists being good guys and them becoming the objectionable force you say they are now. I agree with the latter, but not the former.

Saddam Hussain is another good example. Was he any 'nicer' when he was fighting Iran?

Can we really base whether someone is a terrorist or a freedom fighter solely on whether they suit our tactical interests at the time? Are there no objective forms of measurement we can use?

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 6:38:19 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
I don't see how any government so powerful that it could and would crush every independent spirit existing on the planet could possibly have an ounce of good in it.

I don't think that's the only possibility. The idea of a 'one world' government fills me with as much horror as it does you. And I agree with your description of how it "would crush every independent spirit existing on the planet". The difference is, to a larger or smaller extent, I think what you describe is what every government does. Government is the enemy of freedom.

What I'd prefer (although I don't think this will happen in my lifetime) is a complete decentralisation of power, where people are living in voluntary associations of free individuals, with autonomy within those communities to decide their own fate.

In some way, what I believe isn't that different than the traditional conservative mistrust of "big government". I just go further. If the best government is that which governs least, the perfect government is that which governs not at all.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 6:56:28 AM

kittinSol

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My statement was about the nation state, not about government. There's a not-so-subtle difference.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 8:44:14 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

My statement was about the nation state, not about government. There's a not-so-subtle difference.

So ... is this correct?:

nation-state -> evil
government -> good

Firm

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 8:57:05 AM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
And that's where it comes down to the previous question of freedom fighters versus terrorists. Because when exactly do we pinpoint the change between Afghan fundamentalists being good guys and them becoming the objectionable force you say they are now. I agree with the latter, but not the former.

Simple. when they changed from fighting incursions into their sovereign land to attacking others in *their* sovereign land. It really isnt that hard.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 9:30:54 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Simple. when they changed from fighting incursions into their sovereign land to attacking others in *their* sovereign land. It really isnt that hard.

When did the Taliban (specifically) attack anybody else's sovereign land?

And does that logic apply to the current situation in Iraq as well or is it specific to Afghanistan?

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 9:36:31 AM

Raechard

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I don't know where the sovereign land of anybody is in that region. The lines are so clear on a map but on the ground they've always been more a mishmash of borderless communities. The Taliban don't have sovereign land anyway Afghanistan wasn't always run by the Taliban. It's a shame people can't look back before the Taliban to see what it was.

Well they can but they never choose to.

+of

< Message edited by Raechard -- 5/6/2009 10:09:06 AM >

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 1:12:52 PM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Simple. when they changed from fighting incursions into their sovereign land to attacking others in *their* sovereign land. It really isnt that hard.

When did the Taliban (specifically) attack anybody else's sovereign land?

And does that logic apply to the current situation in Iraq as well or is it specific to Afghanistan?

Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and most importantly the US through their support of OB and AQ.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 4:09:01 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

I doubt he even knows what "quaint" means in the context of the memos.

If you want to make a comment to me then address me directly.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/6/2009 9:14:01 PM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

I doubt he even knows what "quaint" means in the context of the memos.

If you want to make a comment to me then address me directly.

I'll comment how i damn well please, thank you.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 5:57:34 AM

Sanity

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One person's "Freedom Fighters"...

quote:

In Pakistan, ‘great rage, and great fear’

Refugees fleeing Swat Valley tell of Taliban crimes, abuses

OLRA, Pakistan - Hajji Karim and his extended family of 70 were camped in a dirt-floor stable 10 miles outside Islamabad, the Pakistani capital. It was as far as they could get from the Swat Valley, where thousands of people are fleeing from the ravages of the Taliban and the imminent prospect of war with government forces.

When Taliban fighters first entered Karim's village last month, he recounted, they said they had come to bring peace and Islamic law, or sharia, to Swat. But the next day, two of the fighters dragged a policeman out of his truck and tried to slit his throat. Horrified, a crowd rushed over, shouting and trying to shield the officer. The fighters let him go, but the incident confirmed the villagers' worst suspicions. "We all said to each other, what sort of people have come here? And what kind of sharia is this? Cutting off people's heads has nothing to do with Islam," recounted Karim, 55, a bus driver. "The people were filled with great rage, and great fear."

<snip> <snip>

Refugees confused and trapped
As the refugees begin streaming out of Swat and the neighboring Buner district in northwest Pakistan, they carry with them memories of the indignities and horrors inflicted by occupying Taliban forces -- locking women inside their homes, setting donkeys on fire -- as they tried to force residents to accept a radical version of Islam.

(Full article here).

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/7/2009 5:58:04 AM >

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 6:22:49 AM

shannie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

We dig wells, we distribute food and medicine. We build schools and hospitals, soccer fields, canals and roads. What does the Taliban do? They stone girls for going to school, widows for venturing out to try to obtain needed supplies for their children.

Most of the "rebuilding" turned out to be pure fraud though... billions of dollars "lost," wasted, stolen.... pumped in the pockets of Blackwater, Brown and Root, etc.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 6:54:41 AM

Sanity

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There is massive waste whenever government is involved, I can't deny that (which is another reason why government health care is such a bad idea). Still, there is a lot of good that does get done especially by our military all around the world. Massive airlifts of all kinds of aid have been common over the years, as has been the case for a very long time. And schools and hospitals etc. do get built, even if there is a portion lost to fraud and waste. Remember the comedy spoof several years back about the banana republic that declared war on the United States so that they could get their hands on some of our foreign aid money and resources?

It's a long standing joke, and it is so for a reason.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/7/2009 6:55:34 AM >

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 6:59:13 AM

kittinSol

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You honestly think that the military is in it for altruistic motives, do you? War is all about human charity: that's a novel idea.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 7:04:25 AM

Sanity

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If being defeated by the United States in a war is so bad, kitten... why is Europe and japan doing as well as they are today? Probably the best thing that can happen to some dog-forsaken backward little hell hole is to get its ass kicked by the USA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You honestly think that the military is in it for altruistic motives, do you? War is all about human charity: that's a novel idea.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 7:07:24 AM

kittinSol

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That is so irrational, Sanity, I think there's not much more to be discussed on the subject - what you wrote above is delusional at best

.

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RE: Reeducating The Masses Through NewSpeak - 5/7/2009 7:14:52 AM

Sanity

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Can't we try to acknowledge each other's point of view, without assuming bad intentions or casting aspersions?

Even if we don't agree, we should be able to do that, shouldn't we?

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