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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:01:15 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Since the schools are paid for by all citizens, shouldn't their agendas reflect that instead of either all right-wing or all left-wing stances? 


What ever happened to just plain teaching? Did it ever exist? Does anyone else think that being a good teacher, is to inspire learing?

Kim

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:04:23 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Since the schools are paid for by all citizens, shouldn't their agendas reflect that instead of either all right-wing or all left-wing stances? 


What ever happened to just plain teaching? Did it ever exist? Does anyone else think that being a good teacher, is to inspire learing?

Kim
It should...which is what I mentioned later in my post---the idea that what should be concentrated on in school...reading, writing, arithmetic, science...is not.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:06:16 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I agree that the education system needs a major overhall: for example, an Americano-centric view of the world is force fed to the youth of the nation as if they were the sole occupants of the planet. It's as if they were being brought up in Disneyland. If it's not fun then it's not worth doing. Equally pathetic is the indoctrination with the flag every day, and even in public school there lives an underlying ambiance of pro-religious thought that is absolutely terrifying. I'm glad we agree on that.

Incidentally, and in a nice loop back to the OP (because we don't want to derail again now, do we?) neo-conservatives thinkers and leaders cynically and knowingly promoted the spread of religion as a noble lie that would keep the masses occupied with orthodoxy. In this, they very much resembled Marxists. How ironic  .

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:07:01 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		the allowance of books such as "My Two Mommies" in the elementary schools while any serious books taking a stance against homosexuality are banned

How is encouraging bigotry, teaching?

Or right  .....

bigotry="family values"

Good points kittin.You`re always so well spoken and intelligent.

When I was in alimentary,the shift from propaganda to actual history was underway.

I recall my class reading along with the teacher when the history book refereed to native Americans as "savages".She just stopped right there and digressed into how wrong this was and finished the lesson explaining the truth about "manifest destiny".

Our books no longer use terms like "savages" or the like.That`s at least some progress.The cons call that being PC.I call it being dignified .

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/5/2009 8:18:21 AM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:11:22 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		To me these series of videos just show the virtue of humility...The danger of powerful men who think they know the minds and motives of others and only they have the true answers.

There is no conspiracy… just a string of vain humans that think they know the mind of God or what is best for me like it or not.

Close minded people that feel they have the right to judge the actions of others.

If only I could show you all the way.

Butch the all knowing

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:15:14 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Since the schools are paid for by all citizens, shouldn't their agendas reflect that instead of either all right-wing or all left-wing stances? 


What ever happened to just plain teaching? Did it ever exist? Does anyone else think that being a good teacher, is to inspire learing?

Kim
It should...which is what I mentioned later in my post---the idea that what should be concentrated on in school...reading, writing, arithmetic, science...is not.


I guess I am hoping for a change in the presentation, along with focus; what we have now tends to leave out a large number of capable students, and is geared more toward memorizing for the test, than actual learning.

Just a wish list.

Kim

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:25:33 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America. 


Isn't torture still illegal in America, or are you claiming they are all terrorist?

Kim


...enhanced education, surely?

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:28:21 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The danger of powerful men who think they know the minds and motives of others and only they have the true answers.



That is very true. Both sides (the Jihadists, the neo-Cons) thought that they were somehow the holders of the universal truth. Neither group was right, of course, but I hope that their crazy orthodoxy will serve to help them self-destroy. When one is 'pure' and knows the only Truth, as applicable to the entirety of humanity, nobody is pure enough and so they should be terminated or at least, silenced... this self-destruction has already started happening with the neo-Cons in the United States. I pray the Eternal that the others suffer a similar fate .

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:30:04 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Yes, because our children don't get enough liberal...excuse me, progressive...indoctrination with the allowance of books such as "My Two Mommies" in the elementary schools while any serious books taking a stance against homosexuality are banned or with the celebration of Earth Day or with the viewings of Michael Moore's ""Fahrenheit 9/11 or Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth", both criticized for their distortion and omission of relevant facts.


I'll tel you what. I'll send my kid to a school where he reads "My Two Mommies" and learns about Earth Day, and you send your kid to a school where he reads homophobic propaganda and learns about how Jesus rode a velociraptor to church every Sunday. And 20 years from now, let's check back and see which kid is teaching college and which kid is driving a cab with a "God didn't create Adam and Steve" bumper sticker and bitching about cigarette taxes. Deal?


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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:31:36 AM   
kittinSol


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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:31:54 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The world is not divided between good and evil, but the Neo-Conservatives wanted to create moral certainty."


The world is not divided between good and evil?!

Care to elaborate on this thought?

Firm



...i'll have a go at that.......

To be fair it ought to have been phrased better. Let's rephrase it as 'the world is not divided between pure good and pure evil'. No culture has a monopoly on either extreme. Take Hamas for example. No-one seriously defends them tossing unguided missiles over the Israeli border, however we ought not let that piece of stupidity completely overshadow the work they do bringing food supplies in to the Palestinians. The US gives a lot of money in aid to poor and developing nations, but also illegally mined Nicaraguan ports and funded a bunch of mass murdering terrorists.
We can argue quite happily about less good or more evil, but neither of those concepts give us a world with a strict dividing line down the middle. There's more grey areas than anyone would like.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:43:27 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		The really really really scary part is that neo-conservators actually believe that they are the good guys, in the good vs evil dichotomy mythology.

This is how we get conducted usually attributed to brutal tyrants excused and promoted by them.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:46:47 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The really really really scary part is that neo-conservators actually believe that they are the good guys, in the good vs evil dichotomy mythology.


Of course. It's in the bible.


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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:56:48 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

To be fair it ought to have been phrased better.



See my post # 18 for the full transcript of Stephen Holmes' quote.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 8:59:28 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The world is not divided between good and evil, but the Neo-Conservatives wanted to create moral certainty."


The world is not divided between good and evil?!

Care to elaborate on this thought?

Firm



...i'll have a go at that.......

To be fair it ought to have been phrased better. Let's rephrase it as 'the world is not divided between pure good and pure evil'. No culture has a monopoly on either extreme. Take Hamas for example. No-one seriously defends them tossing unguided missiles over the Israeli border, however we ought not let that piece of stupidity completely overshadow the work they do bringing food supplies in to the Palestinians. The US gives a lot of money in aid to poor and developing nations, but also illegally mined Nicaraguan ports and funded a bunch of mass murdering terrorists.
We can argue quite happily about less good or more evil, but neither of those concepts give us a world with a strict dividing line down the middle. There's more grey areas than anyone would like.

Good post.

Very few people believe that they are "on the side of evil".  Most believe that they are indeed fighting for what is good.

kittins statement seemed to be saying that there was no such thing as "good" and "evil".  If one believes that there is no distinction between the two, the logical question is, then, how does one choose one's actions?  What is the basis of one's beliefs, and one's moral code?

Since I didn't get an answer from her - in fact, she flatly refuses to even approach the issue - then I can only assume that she does not believe that there is any difference between "good" and "evil".

Sadly.

Firm

edited to add:

I see her quote now.  However, it only saddens me more, as it seems to be bearing out exactly what I feared, and she still didn't respond with her own view, unless I am to take her quoted material as exactly reflecting her beliefs.


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 5/5/2009 9:05:20 AM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:02:42 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Oh come now Firm,there is no basis for such a conclusion......as subsequent post's point out.



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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:07:26 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Good and evil, like human nature, are cosy and handy little concepts, that help those that dislike complexity put the world into neat little boxes to be filed away and used whenever they want to do some finger waving at dissidents. It's funny how much popular the Evil concept is: must be all the finger pointing.

Of course, there are occurrences of good and wrong (or evil) in the world: the Nazis spring to mind here. As does witch hunting, segregation and all forms of xenophobia. But what the neo-Cons tried to do was create fear of an 'evil' (the Soviet Empire) that didn't exist. In fact, their deliberate attempts at stupidifying the American population and their bombastic belligerence and love of war was evil.

Sadly .


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/5/2009 9:09:26 AM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:08:46 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Oh come now Firm,there is no basis for such a conclusion......as subsequent post's point out.
What she pointed out was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The Straussians started to create a worldview which is a fiction. The world is not divided into good and evil. The battle in which we are engaged is not a battle between good and evil.

If this is indeed what she believes, I'm not sure how you could arrive at any other logical conclusion.

Firm


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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:10:43 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		You need to stop giving a fuck what I believe and worry about your own salvation, KY.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:12:28 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Good and evil, like human nature, are cosy and handy little concepts, that help those that dislike complexity put the world into neat little boxes to be filed away and used whenever they want to do some finger waving at dissidents. It's funny how much popular the Evil concept is: must be all the finger pointing.

Of course, there are occurrences of good and wrong (or evil) in the world: the Nazis spring to mind here. As does witch hunting, segregation and all forms of xenophobia. But what the neo-Cons tried to do was create fear of an 'evil' (the Soviet Empire) that didn't exist. In fact, their deliberate attempts at stupidifying the American population and their bombastic belligerence and love of war was evil.

Sadly .


Aren't what you are doing, and have done consistently in these forums, is classify anything which I might term "conservative" as evil, and anything that you might term "liberal" as good?

How is this any different from what you claim that "neo-cons" did?

Firm


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