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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:15:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You need to stop giving a fuck what I believe and worry about your own salvation, KY.

If you no longer posted as you do, then I wouldn't care what you thought, nor attempt to engage you in dialog.

However, you do post, and you post a very specific point of view, and attempt to advance a very specific pattern of beliefs.

Heat. Kitchen.

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:16:42 AM

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No. The real world isn't 'divided' into good and evil. The world fluctuates, it isn't a rigid set of files in a neo-con's filing cabinet. Only those that have been successfully brainwashed into rigid and intolerant people believe otherwise.

Sadly.

Now, I appreciate your personal interest in me: but you really ought to stop derailing the thread.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:24:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

No. The real world isn't 'divided' into good and evil. The world fluctuates, it isn't a rigid set of files in a neo-con's filing cabinet. Only those that have been successfully brainwashed into rigid and intolerant people believe otherwise.

I'll agree that there are graduations of "good" and "evil", and we can certainly agree to use other terms if you are uncomfortable with that particular set. "Right" and "wrong" spring to mind, but I'll likely accept any reasonable alternative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Now, I appreciate your personal interest in me: but you really ought to stop derailing the thread.

You opened the door to this specific aspect of the topic.

And since this thread is about "How (neo) conservatives think", and I'm often called that very thing, and we are talking about the differences between how a liberal thinks, and how a conservative thinks, I believe this conversation to be exactly on topic and on point.

I suspect the problem is that it makes you uncomfortable to be challenged in your beliefs and that this is the real issue you have with the conversation to date.

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:25:53 AM

kdsub

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Its not good against evil... it is evil against evil that is overwhelming the good. It is simply a combination of intolerance...vanity...pride...and greed.

Nothing new in the history of the world... we think we are so much better than civilizations of the past yet we make the same mistakes… I think this thread ties into then Human Nature thread...We seem to be unable to overcome our nature even to save ourselves.

Butch

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:45:31 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be compulsory viewing for all kids of high school age in America.

Isn't torture still illegal in America, or are you claiming they are all terrorist?

Kim

...enhanced education, surely?

If I weren’t a masochist...

...
Kim

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:46:13 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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The world is not divided into good and evil, it is a combination of good and evil. People are not divided into good and evil, they are a combination of good and evil. Even people who are fundamentally evil, and who do considerable evil in the world (Bush, Cheney, Rove, bin Laden, Saddam) are not entirely evil. They genuinely believe they are acting on behalf of the greater good.

As Philosophy says, it's important to recognize that if you're going to deal effectively with them - but as important as it is to recognize that, it's equally important not to give them much credit for it. I understand that Bush genuinely thought it was god's will for him to invade Iraq, and I'll keep that in mind when trying to puzzle out his reasons, but at the end of the day it's not going to have any effect on how I judge him. It was still an act of such unconscionable evil, I think it's fair and reasonable to consider him a fundamentally evil man. And treat him accordingly.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:56:03 AM

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Evil is having knowledge whilst inflicting ignorance upon others.Evil is also choosing to remain ignorant for personal reasons of emotional comfort and certainty. Inasmuch as the neo-Cons knew the truth, but perverted it to suit their political purpose, I agree that what they did was evil. However, they may redeem themselves one way or another and attempt to redress the balance towards the path of good. In this, evil is transient, just like good.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 9:56:20 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Its not good against evil... it is evil against evil that is overwhelming the good. It is simply a combination of intolerance...vanity...pride...and greed.

I prefer greed and deceit against truth.

adding: With greed and deceit battling it out for now.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/5/2009 9:59:11 AM >

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:04:10 AM

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It's really very funny that a thread on neo-conservatism is turning into a discussion on the nature of evil

.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:06:08 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Evil is having knowledge whilst inflicting ignorance upon others.Evil is also choosing to remain ignorant for personal reasons of emotional comfort and certainty. Inasmuch as the neo-Cons knew the truth, but perverted it to suit their political purpose, I agree that what they did was evil. However, they may redeem themselves one way or another and attempt to redress the balance towards the path of good. In this, evil is transient, just like good.

It's theoretically possible, and if they do, I'll be willing to re-evaluate them. To some degree. But until that day, I will continue to evaluate them on the basis of their demonstrated behavior, which is overwhelmingly evil.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:07:49 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's really very funny that a thread on neo-conservatism is turning into a discussion on the nature of evil .

Funny, perhaps, but certainly not in the sense that it's an incongruity. It's about as inevitable as a thread about alcoholics turning into a discussion about alcohol.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:10:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's really very funny that a thread on neo-conservatism is turning into a discussion on the nature of evil .

That is because there are so many liberals responding on it.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:12:02 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's really very funny that a thread on neo-conservatism is turning into a discussion on the nature of evil .

[/quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Evil is having knowledge whilst inflicting ignorance upon others.Evil is also choosing to remain ignorant for personal reasons of emotional comfort and certainty. Inasmuch as the neo-Cons knew the truth, but perverted it to suit their political purpose, I agree that what they did was evil. However, they may redeem themselves one way or another and attempt to redress the balance towards the path of good. In this, evil is transient, just like good.

It's theoretically possible, and if they do, I'll be willing to re-evaluate them. To some degree. But until that day, I will continue to evaluate them on the basis of their demonstrated behavior, which is overwhelmingly evil.
quote]

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:13:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's really very funny that a thread on neo-conservatism is turning into a discussion on the nature of evil .

Funny, perhaps, but certainly not in the sense that it's an incongruity. It's about as inevitable as a thread about alcoholics turning into a discussion about alcohol.

Too true, true true, here's a little link just for you: "Mr Evil'.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:27:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Oh come now Firm,there is no basis for such a conclusion......as subsequent post's point out.
What she pointed out was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The Straussians started to create a worldview which is a fiction. The world is not divided into good and evil. The battle in which we are engaged is not a battle between good and evil.

If this is indeed what she believes, I'm not sure how you could arrive at any other logical conclusion.

Firm

Are you actually taking a position that the world is divided along the lines of good and evil.
Seeems a little child like,don't you think.Do you not recognise the complexities of grey,the shadings of doubt...is your world veiw so simplistic that the good guys wear white and the bad guys don black.Perspective is a bitch....on one thread you argue the clearly defined lines of good and evil...on another you speak of a "good faith effort" at legality.....surely a "good faith effort" would not be enough to drag something "evil" over to the "good".

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:33:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The world is not divided into good and evil, it is a combination of good and evil. People are not divided into good and evil, they are a combination of good and evil. Even people who are fundamentally evil, and who do considerable evil in the world ... are not entirely evil. They genuinely believe they are acting on behalf of the greater good.

Other than you specific examples (Bush, Cheney, Rove, bin Laden, Saddam), I really have nothing to disagree with in this statement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

As Philosophy says, it's important to recognize that if you're going to deal effectively with them - but as important as it is to recognize that, it's equally important not to give them much credit for it.

The italicized portion I do have a problem with, depending on how you actualize the concept.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I understand that Bush genuinely thought it was god's will for him to invade Iraq, and I'll keep that in mind when trying to puzzle out his reasons, but at the end of the day it's not going to have any effect on how I judge him.

This is an interesting concept as well. I do believe that one should judge others on their actions more than their reasons, although their reasons may well be important (intent is an important aspect of morality and law).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

It was still an act of such unconscionable evil, I think it's fair and reasonable to consider him a fundamentally evil man. And treat him accordingly.

Now this is where I really do disagree with you.

Tell me ... what is a "fundamentally evil man"?

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:38:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Are you actually taking a position that the world is divided along the lines of good and evil.
Seeems a little child like,don't you think.Do you not recognise the complexities of grey,the shadings of doubt...is your world veiw so simplistic that the good guys wear white and the bad guys don black.Perspective is a bitch....on one thread you argue the clearly defined lines of good and evil...on another you speak of a "good faith effort" at legality.....surely a "good faith effort" would not be enough to drag something "evil" over to the "good".

Please don't turn into another rulemylife.

I made the distinction quite clearly in at least one of my earlier posts that there are certainly shades of both.

My question and comments to kittin were whether or not she (and others) do not believe that there is any distinction between good and evil.

Firm

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:39:19 AM

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Some people believe that religion (the Xstian kind, of course) should play a part in public affairs and government, and influence policy in America. The BBC documentary linked by Owner explains how the neo-con leaders promoted the "noble lie" of religion to manipulate the masses into joining the movement - very similarly, the Jihadists are making the same argument.

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:39:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

It should...which is what I mentioned later in my post---the idea that what should be concentrated on in school...reading, writing, arithmetic, science...is not.

Considering your screen name, do you think creative thinking and being exposed to different ideas should be part of that?

Or should it just be rote learning and memorization?

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RE: How (neo)conservatives Think - 5/5/2009 10:43:51 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Some people believe that religion (the Xstian kind, of course) should play a part in public affairs and government, and influence policy in America. The BBC documentary linked by Owner explains how the neo-con leaders promoted the "noble lie" of religion to manipulate the masses into joining the movement - very similarly, the Jihadists are making the same argument.

Is it possible that government could be considered a religion?

Kim

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