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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 3:44:44 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/05/03/2009-05-03_teen_tells_of_being_shot_as_cops_fought_thug.html

Brooklyn teen shot by NYPD officer tells of accidental hit BY Brendan Brosh
DAILY NEWS WRITER Sunday, May 3rd 2009, 5:25 AM  DeCrescenzo for News Darnell Williams was hit in the left leg by a stray bullet fired by a New York Police Officer as he stood on a subway platform. A Brooklyn teen who was accidentally shot by cops during a fracas on a subway platform is slowly recovering after being released from the hospital Saturday. Darnell Williams, 17, was grazed by a bullet on Thursday when cops were trying to arrest a screwdriver-wielding panhandler who stabbed a cop.
>more at link<

I guess Police officers shouldn't have firearms either.

ed:  Removed picture before Mod XI got there... ;)


Well that is a silly conclusion.....though under the heading of unintended consequences the story does seem to shine a light on the fact that bullets don't allways hit their intended targets....even when fired by trained LEO's.
Yet most gun enthusiast's will claim more guns make us safer.....the logic behind that claim escapes me.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 4:07:39 PM   
rulemylife


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You can't be serious.

I only have time right now to address the first one, but I've read through the first six or seven and they're are all equally as ridiculous.

In none of these instances I've read so far was a gun necessary.

From your link:

From the May 8, 2009 South Bend Tribune:
MISHAWAKA — Two young girls, sisters, were in critical condition late Thursday after being run down earlier in the evening while crossing the street arm-in-arm after playing with friends.

The driver reportedly attempted to flee, but was stopped at gunpoint by a man who witnessed the accident.


To begin, is there some reason we need to have the protection of self-appointed guardians of society?

I've been to Mishawaka, it's a small town.  A description of the car and the license plate number called into police would have made for an easy apprehension.

Instead, this man tried to play the hero.  What would he have done if the driver had not stopped?  Either be run over or start spraying bullets that might have injured or killed innocent bystanders.

Is this what you are advocating?  A return to an old west style of vigilanteism where every person has the right to take the law into their own hands?


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 5/10/2009 4:13:12 PM >

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 4:08:16 PM   
Crush


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http://members.iquest.net/~petedrum/

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< Message edited by Crush -- 5/10/2009 4:09:18 PM >


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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 4:12:38 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

So you think it was worth it to almost kill an innocent girl ...I could care less about the crooks... what about all the rounds going through walls that could kill innocents… is it worth it in your world?... Not mine... Now if five guys were in a small room with one crook and he took his eyes off me long enough to get a gun out of a bag they could have taken him down... or if he had the drop on the guy he could have been ready to shoot but gave him a chance to drop it first.[/snip]

Lessee... I'm one of 5 or so girls being held at gunpoint by 2 masked assholes that have already indicated that they are planning to kill everyone in the apt. Said masked assholes, who may very well be infected with HIV or some other incurable nasty, are about to rape me and the other females, maybe the males too. So, even if they are lying about killing everyone, they probably aren't lying about the rape (taking the girls in the bedroom isn't an indication that they are after tea and crumpets). I'll take my chances with the bullets, thanks.
quote:

Hero comes in room…. sees him trying to get away and shoot him anyway for no reason…and still manages t hit one of the girls. Or the bad guy shoots and hits one of the girls… Makes no difference the Hero shoots first starting the exchange.

From this previous post, you indicated that once the student fired, he became responsible for all the shots (not sure how that works, but let's just go with it). So, if the students had opted for trying to "take down" the bad guy and the result was the bad guy or his buddy in the other room spraying the place down and killing a bunch of people with shots through the walls and such, wouldn't THAT be the students' fault, too? Or was it only because the student used a gun? By your logic, shouldn't the victims have just been good and done as they were told?

Next scenario... the student "gets the drop" on bad guy #1 with the old "Freeze asshole" routine. Okie dokie. Assuming badguy #1 doesn't panic and spray bullets everywhere, now you have tipped off badguy #2, who has a gun and 5 hostages. Good plan. For all your speculating about the second guy being deaf, the student was most likely in the bedroom before bad guy #2 could react much to the shot(s) fired in the living room.

You can Monday morning quarterback this all you like, kd. You weren't there, and all the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" in the world won't change that. By all indications, these kids thought they were dead. Blaming them for fighting back is nuts.

Oh, and as an aside, tossing out the phrase "a feel of pussy" when referring to a woman being raped at gunpoint shows an attitude that I won't remark on further.



< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 5/10/2009 4:25:39 PM >


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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 4:42:53 PM   
Jack45


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No guns allowed for right-wing 'extremists'

quote:

A new gun law being considered in Congress, if aligned with Department of Homeland Security memos labeling everyday Americans as potential "threats," could potentially deny firearms to pro-lifers, gun-rights advocates, tax protesters, animal rights activists, and a host of others – any already on the expansive DHS watch list for potential "extremism."


Our rights are what is wrong with America according to the Commisars.
GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA


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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 4:51:53 PM   
Crush


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Extremely relevant website:  http://www.studentsforconcealedcarryoncampus.com/



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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 5:07:48 PM   
Crush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
......
Next scenario... the student "gets the drop" on bad guy #1 with the old "Freeze asshole" routine. Okie dokie. Assuming badguy #1 doesn't panic and spray bullets everywhere, now you have tipped off badguy #2, who has a gun and 5 hostages. Good plan. For all your speculating about the second guy being deaf, the student was most likely in the bedroom before bad guy #2 could react much to the shot(s) fired in the living room.



An interesting point of law is that usually if someone is injured/killed during such an event, it is the "bad guy" who is charged with the crime, not the individual who was trying to save lives.

Ex:  Most states also have a felony murder statute. Under the felony murder doctrine, a person who attempts or commits a specified felony may be held responsible for a death caused by an accomplice in the commission of the felony, an attempt to commit the felony, or flight from the felony or attempted felony. For example, if two persons rob a bank and during the robbery one of them shoots and kills a security guard, the perpetrator who did not pull the trigger may nevertheless be charged with murder.  (Law Encyclopedia http://www.answers.com/topic/murder )

So it is likely that the 2nd bad guy could even be charged for the injuries to the woman as well.


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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 5:24:33 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

....and, to play the devils advocate, even if they had drugs, that is not an excuse to come rob and rape and all that jazz. 

go to rob someone, especially someone you know to have illegal dealings, be prepared to pay with your life.

So, you're defending the rights of drug dealers to defend themselves against against people trying to steal their drugs.

That 2nd amendment sure does cover a lot of ground, I guess.

Yes the second amend. covers all of the ground. These so-called drug dealers were not drug dealers at all. They were no more than suspects and even that is based on evidence yielding a probable cause to believe they may in fact be drug dealers.

A man or two, masked, enter my home uninvited, carry guns no less is already 2 felonies of which I am now...eye-witness. The threat to life and property is imminent. I am now awarded the exculpatory power to exercise my right to defend my home AND life. I shoot to kill and absolutely, a whole lot more accurate then any of these chracters.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 6:03:39 PM   
MarsBonfire


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It sounds to me like the kid who did all the shooting was doing so with the "garden hose" school of marksmanship. Maybe, had his gun ownership been dependant on taking a few classes on how to actually USE to gun he was flailing around with, the girl wouldn't have ended up with two slugs in her.

To me, the best sort of "gun control" is being a safe, responsible gun owner, and being able to hit what the fuck you are aiming at!

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 6:25:44 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

It sounds to me like the kid who did all the shooting was doing so with the "garden hose" school of marksmanship.

Umm... as the story said that the girl was caught in the crossfire, I don't think the kid was the only one shooting.
Unless there is a part of the story or video I missed, nowhere does it say how many shots were fired, or how many the kid fired. Could he have sprayed the place? Yeah. Does that mean that he did? Not necessarily. He could have fired only 3 times- one miss at bad guy #1, and 2 hits on bad guy #2, who may have been the one that shot the girl.
Way too many assumptions with way too little information. Jus sayin.



_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 6:32:44 PM   
kdsub


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If I had to make a terrible choice...would I rather see my daughter raped ...or be shot twice... I think I would say rape... Terrible thing to think of that's for sure. Yes the boy instigated all the shooting...because of him a girl was almost killed and many others could have been.

What if your daughter was that girl in the room and in the gun battle she was killed...would you still be so gung-ho about a inexperienced gun wielding wantabe hero?

There is something not right in this story… there could have been and should have been other choices… I described some above.

Butch

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 7:07:06 PM   
WyldHrt


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You keep ignoring the fact that these guys had indicated that they intended to kill everyone there. Whether they would have or not, only they know. That said, if some masked guy pointing a gun at me starts talking like he's going to kill me, all bets are off. Particularly if the masked guy(s) in question are stupid/ crazy enough to try a home invasion on 10 people in an apartment FFS.

I love the fact that you keep blaming the kid here. Your assumption is that no one would have gotten shot had he not grabbed the gun. Maybe so, maybe they would have "just" raped the 5 girls, maybe they would have killed one or even all of the kids. Given the above, the fact that you think it would have been OK for the guys to try "taking down" the guy with the gun in the living room simply amazes me. Had they tried that and the result was that the bad guy, flailing, with his finger on the trigger, shot and killed one of the girls or someone outside the apt, would you be blaming the boys? Or is it the fact that the kid used a gun? I asked that before, but haven't gotten an answer.

Had it been my daughter, I would be blaming the guys who did the home invasion. At least the kid tried to do something about it.  As it was, all the kids survived, one was injured, and none of them were raped.

As to choosing rape over being shot, that would be your choice for your daughter. Would you feel differently if the rapist was going to sodomize her, maybe tearing her open? Infect her with an incurable and deadly disease? Maybe decide to strangle her?  What about for you?
Given the circumstances, I'll stand by my choice.


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 7:10:12 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Yes the second amend. covers all of the ground. These so-called drug dealers were not drug dealers at all. They were no more than suspects and even that is based on evidence yielding a probable cause to believe they may in fact be drug dealers.

A man or two, masked, enter my home uninvited, carry guns no less is already 2 felonies of which I am now...eye-witness. The threat to life and property is imminent. I am now awarded the exculpatory power to exercise my right to defend my home AND life. I shoot to kill and absolutely, a whole lot more accurate then any of these chracters.


No, actually it doesn't.

Yes, the two home invaders would be guilty of several felonies.

But, it seems as if many, if not most, of these home invasions turn out to either be disputes between drug sellers or an attempt to rob a drug seller.

If that turns out to the case, and the hero shooter was involved in a criminal enterprise he will face very similar felony charges.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 7:41:13 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

Wyldhrt
Way too many assumptions with way too little information. Jus sayin.


Speaking of way too many assumptions, this was your response in an earlier post:

"Lessee... I'm one of 5 or so girls being held at gunpoint by 2 masked assholes that have already indicated that they are planning to kill everyone in the apt. Said masked assholes, who may very well be infected with HIV or some other incurable nasty, are about to rape me and the other females, maybe the males too. So, even if they are lying about killing everyone, they probably aren't lying about the rape (taking the girls in the bedroom isn't an indication that they are after tea and crumpets). I'll take my chances with the bullets, thanks."

A whole lot of assumptions in your post based on a brief, poorly written, initial story of the incident which accepted at face value the account of only one person there, without any corroboration from anyone else there or any attempt to discover whether the police believed his highly suspect story.

Unless this makes the national news I doubt we will ever find out the true story, but my guess is what this reporter was told isn't it.


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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 7:48:48 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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" It also appears that the elderly are the most frequent victims in this type of crime as compared to other kinds of robberies. Victims aged 60 or over made up 17% of home invasion victims, whereas that same group made up only 6% of other kinds of robberies. In the survey it was also reported that in 68% of the cases, the victim and accused were strangers, 21% of the time they were casual acquaintances, and 11% of the time they were relatives, friends, or had some type of business relationship. "

http://www.professorshouse.com/your-home/decorating-design/home-invasions-facts-statistics.aspx

There are not any seperate statistics kept by the FBI or DOJ for just Home Invasions, but you can do a search of the FBI webiste and find seperate cases. I only jumped around to a few, and did not find any that support your claims.

What makes you believe your comment is correct?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

But, it seems as if many, if not most, of these home invasions turn out to either be disputes between drug sellers or an attempt to rob a drug seller.



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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 7:56:12 PM   
WyldHrt


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My assumptions were in response to other assumptions already made, RML. We can speculate until Judgment Day about what would have or could have happened (as I did above, and many others have done in the last 3 pages), given the limited information provided. Unless more is reported on the story, we will never know.




_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 8:57:17 PM   
Termyn8or


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[Dammit, just typed this and for some reason it refreshed or something]

Years ago in Kansas, five college students were taken hostage by two thugs, one of them armed. After a nice round of rapes they went for a ride, to the ATM machines of course. After that they drove at gunpoint to a remote location out in nowhere and executed after they obeyed like good little sheep and kneeled down in a nice row at the behest of their assailants.

However depending on the bullet and the load, as well as the trajectory, sometimes the bullet will travel under the scalp and come out the other end giving the appearance that one has been shot in the head successfully. I do not know if that trauma put her unconcious for a time or if she had the brains to play possum, but after the assailants left in the stolen car she went running to find the nearest vestige of civilisation, found a phone somewhere and called the law, stark naked.

The perps were caught, but if she had actually been dead the bodies would not have been found soon, and the perps would probably be out of state and in another car by that time. Additionally there would be no living witnesses.

What is my point mentioning this ? My point is that each person is ultimately responsible for their own safety. Even the supreme court has ruled the the government has no obligation in law to protect anyone. I also find it hard to believe that five could not get the drop on two. Even armed intruders, what if only one were dead instead of four ? Good or bad people ? you tell me.

There are other rules to this. First of all if you are armed, but are being robbed by a martial arts master he might just take your gun away. This is why it is important to shoot first. If you are old and feeble, a gun might not be the best choice, perhaps it would be better to live with someone who is able and proficient.

And I agree that hitting your target is very important. In a crowded room it can be hard to prevent collateral damage (that's why I got rid of the AK47). But not everyone can be a marksman, so I say shoot to kill and take the error, you are alot more likely to stop the perp and not have to kill him. If he lives or dies, oh well.

Rule number two, never under any circumstance travel at gunpoint. Get it throiugh your head and say "No MF, shoot me right here where it is not so convenient". I admit that could take some serious balls, but you HAVE TO. Otherwise they might never find your body. The perps just get away with it, possibly for years. Possibly forever. If you are killed at home, the trail won't be so cold, and know this, any ride that starts out at gunpoint, ends in your death.

It is our right to persue the ownership of firearms, for whatever reason, but using them is a different story. I am not only a natural but I grew up around them just about all the time. I also know my limitations, like my eyesight is not what it used to be, but in close quarters that is not a big issue, and if I go to shoot someone across the street I am not in imminent danger am I ?

So with the right comes a commensurate responsibilty. That's where I have to hand it to Merc. We differ on some points but he I believe is going to be armed, but he wants do know how to use the thing, and of course not accidentally shoot beth. I consider that being responsible, no less. People who just fire guns off willy nilly should not be free to do so. However I am still not in favor of taking their rights away peemptively.

Personally I think that the schools should have gun training, at least know the types, how they are loaded and sometimes more importantly how they are unloaded. Actual marksmanship is not as important, most encounters between say a homeowner and intruder are less than ten feet apart. It's just you need to know what to do.

Like when I gave up the AK47. I would be too reluctant to use it because after going through an assailant's body it could wind up in a baby's crib across the street. Thus I would have to think about how to maneuver the situation to try and prevent such a mishap. This would give the intruder precious time to figure out his next move. That could cost me my life.

But is my life worth more that that of an infant in a crib in another house ? I would have to say almost unequivocably NO. But I still have the right to self defense, I just have to be responsible about it. I have no need to shoot someone 500 yards away in self defense. So now I got the snubnose .38 and some flattops for it. Plenty of stopping power, just less going power.

It's what I need for a safe killing :-)

T

(in reply to WyldHrt)
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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 9:39:05 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

You keep ignoring the fact that these guys had indicated that they intended to kill everyone there. Whether they would have or not, only they know. That said, if some masked guy pointing a gun at me starts talking like he's going to kill me, all bets are off. Particularly if the masked guy(s) in question are stupid/ crazy enough to try a home invasion on 10 people in an apartment FFS.

I love the fact that you keep blaming the kid here. Your assumption is that no one would have gotten shot had he not grabbed the gun. Maybe so, maybe they would have "just" raped the 5 girls, maybe they would have killed one or even all of the kids. Given the above, the fact that you think it would have been OK for the guys to try "taking down" the guy with the gun in the living room simply amazes me. Had they tried that and the result was that the bad guy, flailing, with his finger on the trigger, shot and killed one of the girls or someone outside the apt, would you be blaming the boys? Or is it the fact that the kid used a gun? I asked that before, but haven't gotten an answer.

Had it been my daughter, I would be blaming the guys who did the home invasion. At least the kid tried to do something about it.  As it was, all the kids survived, one was injured, and none of them were raped.

As to choosing rape over being shot, that would be your choice for your daughter. Would you feel differently if the rapist was going to sodomize her, maybe tearing her open? Infect her with an incurable and deadly disease? Maybe decide to strangle her?  What about for you?
Given the circumstances, I'll stand by my choice.




You are assuming they would kill everyone... they did not say that... in fact if I was one of 5 boys and a small room and one guy with a gun shot someone I would rush him...I’m not just going to stand there and let him shoot me… If they planned on killing they would have made them get on the floor and tied everyone up first... common sense.

Think about it… if you had a gun and there were 5 people within 8 feet of you could you shoot all 5 before they got you? They had no intention of shooting … they were just scaring.

And yes it is the crooks fault first… but the hero’s fault the girl got shot as well. If as he said when he came in the room the guy was getting ready to rape a girl… which I don’t believe after the shootout a few feet away…. Then why didn’t he say freeze… then if the guy tried to turn and shoot him then bang.

Nope he came in and started shooting.

Look I have no sympathy for the crook… glad he’s facing his maker… But I will not praise a boy as a hero when he almost got people killed.

Butch

(in reply to WyldHrt)
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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 9:40:11 PM   
Aileen1968


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*fast reply*
After reading this thread I know who's house to rob and who's house not to rob.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/10/2009 9:45:47 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or That's where I have to hand it to Merc. We differ on some points but he I believe is going to be armed, but he wants do know how to use the thing, and of course not accidentally shoot beth. I consider that being responsible, no less.


No shit. Beth's cool! And Merc's clearly a very considerate man, to not want to kill her.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
But is my life worth more that that of an infant in a crib in another house ? I would have to say almost unequivocably NO. But I still have the right to self defense, I just have to be responsible about it. I have no need to shoot someone 500 yards away in self defense. So now I got the snubnose .38 and some flattops for it. Plenty of stopping power, just less going power.

It's what I need for a safe killing :-)



That's why my primary home defense weapon is a 12-gauge pump. Whatever pellets miss may go through one wall, but they won't do much damage to anything on the other side of it. Whereas anything this side of the wall gets thoroughly hamburgerized. Best of both worlds.


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