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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 1:07:13 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, better to have the classes taught by those who do not have any vested, ideological views either way.

lol... Good luck in finding any.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 1:25:23 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, better to have the classes taught by those who do not have any vested, ideological views either way.

lol... Good luck in finding any.

That might be, but there is a range near me that caters primarily to the the local police departments but is open to the public.

Most of their instructors are off-duty officers. Which is not to say they don't have their own views, but have experienced the realities of these situations as opposed to most of us here with little or no experience in them.

(And I mean in a civilian crime situation before someone starts telling me about their military life.)

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 2:59:57 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Actually there is just such a situation in a tactical training book written by an LA SWAT guy, and "freeze sucker" is not part of the viable solutions.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 3:18:44 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, better to have the classes taught by those who do not have any vested, ideological views either way.

lol... Good luck in finding any.

That might be, but there is a range near me that caters primarily to the the local police departments but is open to the public.

Most of their instructors are off-duty officers. Which is not to say they don't have their own views, but have experienced the realities of these situations as opposed to most of us here with little or no experience in them.

(And I mean in a civilian crime situation before someone starts telling me about their military life.)

So... what you're saying is you can't really offer any suggestions that meet your original criteria, but you do think there are people who do have a vested, ideological idea that you would approve of?

Why then, didn't you just suggest that it might be better to have the classes taught by persons who have real world experience?

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 3:19:44 PM

JstAnotherSub

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fast reply

the one thing i have taken from this thread is thankfulness. i am thankful that i was raised by folks who taught me respect and proper usage of weapons from as far back as i can remember. i am thankful that i got that huge ass bruise on my shoulder when i was about 11 and said oh daddy i really really am big enough to shoot that 12 gauge-i know i am.

im glad the army taught me to think about what i would do in a situation before it happened, whether it be someone coming in to my home, or the fact if my brakes ever go out as im going down the hill on my road, i need to remember to cut the wheel to the right so i dont slam headfirst into that huge ass oak tree.

and im still glad that the guy in this op did what he did. i can only hope the friends he has, and helped save, are comfort for him as he has to live with the fact he took another human beings life, something that he will live with forever, and no matter how right you are when you did it, and no matter how many you kept out of harms way, i have yet to meet anyone who did it and was unaffected by it.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 3:24:36 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, better to have the classes taught by those who do not have any vested, ideological views either way.

lol... Good luck in finding any.

That might be, but there is a range near me that caters primarily to the the local police departments but is open to the public.

Most of their instructors are off-duty officers. Which is not to say they don't have their own views, but have experienced the realities of these situations as opposed to most of us here with little or no experience in them.

(And I mean in a civilian crime situation before someone starts telling me about their military life.)

So... what you're saying is you can't really offer any suggestions that meet your original criteria, but you do think there are people who do have a vested, ideological idea that you would approve of?

Why then, didn't you just suggest that it might be better to have the classes taught by persons who have real world experience?

No, actually you are reading things into what I said that are your own perceptions, not my meaning, which I think was pretty clear.

And no, I'm not really in the mood for an argument tonight. I was trying to play nice, but if you like, feel free to continue on without me.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 8:38:14 PM

kdsub

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Firm

It is hard to argue with your post…in fact I see no use in trying…you may be right. So I am just going to state some feelings...at least as far as I am concerned. Not to argue but what I know would be my actions in that situation.

First and foremost….I do not mean to take blame away from the perpetrators. But if my daughter or the wounded girl had been killed there would be a completely different take on the boy’s actions. He would not be considered a hero and there would have been an outcry about guns and their irresponsible use. And that child’s father would have a very hard time understanding how that boy could have been so caviler with his little girls life. I would never under any circumstances start a gun battle with women in the line of fire. I don’t care how afraid for my life I was… I would not do it…he should not of either.

How many reading this thread would under those circumstances believe they would go in a room shooting with unarmed innocents in the line of fire?

That is my point… I am not saying guns are bad… I am not saying I care if a crook gets blown away… I am saying this kid was irresponsible and someone needs to point it out.

I am not trying to turn this into an antigun argument…nor a liberal versus conservative argument.

I am talking about what did happen… not what some think may have happened. I stated what I would or could have done and others have argued why they would think what happened was justified. Fine but we do know the actions caused one death and one near death. We should discuss those actions and if they were right or wrong… And maybe, heaven forbid, if we are in that type of situation in the future it may make us think our actions through before we act and get someone we love killed.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/11/2009 8:43:56 PM >

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 8:48:51 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am saying this kid was irresponsible and someone needs to point it out.

Butch,

Good post, and I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Your opinion is your opinion.

However, with the specific sentence of yours I quoted above, I respectfully (and vehemently) disagree.

In fact, just the opposite conclusion is where I arrive. The "kid" was the most responsible, and bravest person there.

I know you don't agree, but just wanted to let you know.

Firm

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 9:29:37 PM

Vendaval

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This scenario could have gone either way with that many people in a small space. The article states that one of the women was shot several times in the cross-fire but is expected to recover. Close call.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 9:31:37 PM

Termyn8or

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I think the "kid" may have lacked tactical training, or maybe just couldn't think on his feet fast enough. I have said what I said, you just can't let people get away with shit.

However I (none of us in fact) can guarantee that we would have handled the situation any better without some really specific details. First of all let's assume the kid did not want to shoot her, he wanted to shoot the bad guy. I have been in a few situations that were a bit tricky, but nothing like this. You have ten lives in there that you do care about and two that you don't.

To me at least it seems such a situation could get very complicated very fast. Face it folks, noone can convince me that they would do any better. Even with detailed surveilance tapes, going through them, could anyone say just where the kid screwed up ? Sure, as armchair quarterbacks we all could, but the reality is when you have to think in the here and now, and as far as you're concerned who pulls the trigger first wins, you don't have a whole lot of time for contemplation.

Bravery ? Not claiming that issue either way. Guns do induce "bravery" in some, but he must have known that he would become a target when he shot the first bad guy. Acting quickly would then be a good thing. And even if the second bad guy shot him, he changed the odds a bit didn't he ? Now one bad guy has to control eight people, instead of five on one.

I just had to say that becaause to kibbutz his actions afterhand, with the sketchy details is simply not fair. Of the ten people who were supposed to be there, all are alive. That's better than taking the ride out to a secluded area and being massacred.

T

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/11/2009 10:01:26 PM

WyldHrt

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Firm,
I will leave this discussion in your capable hands, as your posts are being properly responded to in some quarters, as mine- for some reason- aren't.

I will say that I found it fascinating how the disgusting act of rape was "a feel of pussy" in the beginning but became something "terrible" when applied to a loved one; and how the female college student, who owned one of the pussies in question, became a "little girl" only in reference to her being injured in the crossfire.
I'm done.

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/12/2009 8:51:45 AM

kdsub

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WyldHrt I apologize for not addressing all your posts...I addressed the first post but when I came back I did not see your other posts until I had already answered Firm. Answering Firm answered yours as well so I did not repeat the post.

Even now there is no reason to go over my feelings on if rape or death was the worse outcome… We have both stated our positions. I was using crass language to make a point… It certainly got your attention as I intended and spurred an important discussion that was being ignored.

But I want to assure you I did not mean to ignore your passionate and well stated posts.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/12/2009 8:52:15 AM >

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RE: This is what happens... - 5/12/2009 9:45:36 PM

Sanity

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Not a reply to anyone in particular, but Firm is correct, the kid was right. You never want to become a kidnap victim, you should never give up control to an intruder if it can be helped in any way. Personally, I'd die before allowing that to happen. Anyone intent on kidnapping you or taking you prisoner at gunpoint can't have anything good in mind for you, and once you're rendered immobile you're completely fucked. And once someone's gone that far it's best if there are no witnesses, because kidnapping is already good for a life sentence...

Look up the history of a few people like Charles Ng for a clue as to what can happen. Your best chance in an abduction situation is at the very beginning, that's when everything is decided.

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