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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 9:16:56 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

*shrug* After reading the last few pages of posts, I am reconfirmed in my belief that the acceptance of most people, bdsm or not, is not something worth having.

People who blather on about other people's bodies and judge them by superficial features without knowing them personally? Are all the same. Idiots. Doesn't matter if it's gender, gender preference, age, race, weight, religion, whatever. A prejudice does not suddenly acquire a halo because they haven't built a deathcamp for it yet. Personally, the conditions that LadyC is describing in Germany sound pretty revolting to me. Children with anorexia is not a cultural victory.

I also always have a good laugh over that "A dominant should be a perfect human being or they 'aren't in control' and can't be an effective leader or trainer" line of bullshit. Wow, you can't exert authority over other people's minds and bodies effectively unless you are a physically flawless specimen yourself? Someone better tell that to all those overweight, smoking, crap-eating athletics coaches who keep churning out the winning teams and the Olympic champions, then.

They also need to get in the time machine and go back to tell the majority of the most famous generals in history that you can't command an army unless you're the biggest and strongest man in it. I'm sure that will come as a real shock to Napoleon in particular.

*shakes her head* Anyway, the answer to the OP's question is very clear. No, "bdsm'ers" in general are not more accepting of different body types. They also aren't any wiser about a lot of other things. I think the key in this community as in many others is to find the ones who appreciate beauty in all its forms, and ignore the others. Their worldview is its own punishment. Having a narrow definition of beauty makes the world an ugly place.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 9:48:57 PM

LadyPact

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I admit that I haven't read the thread. This is just a public statement of My opinion.

BDSMer's are only 'better than' our vanilla counterparts at exactly one thing. That thing, and only that one thing, is BDSM. We aren't smarter, more enlightened, more emotionally in tune, or any other thing when compared to anyone else. We're not better communicators. We're not more accepting. Not more intelligent. Not better educated. Not healthier. We don't live longer. Etc., etc., etc.

The only difference between us and them, is we enjoy doing whatever it is that we're doing that falls under the BDSM umbrella. Take that away, and the human beings involved are basically the same.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 9:51:23 PM

SimplyMichael

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I want to apologize for a rather nasty rant. The reality is we all want our bad sides/traits/weakness overlooked in favor of whatever good things we are blessed with. I am at times a mean sob.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 9:56:34 PM

Ialdabaoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I want to apologize for a rather nasty rant. The reality is we all want our bad sides/traits/weakness overlooked in favor of whatever good things we are blessed with. I am at times a mean sob.

Of course, some people have created an art-form out of making being a mean SOB into their "good side".

I think the trick is to take refuge in audacity, and always seek to maximize harm.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:19:24 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I want to apologize for a rather nasty rant. The reality is we all want our bad sides/traits/weakness overlooked in favor of whatever good things we are blessed with. I am at times a mean sob.

I read your 'rather nasty rant' and did a lot of nodding in agreement, Michael.
Guess I'm a nasty sob (or the female quuivalent, maybe just a b, eh?) too. :>
Davan

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:20:33 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You don't see many big people in Germany, because they are treated with extreme contempt

I have to say that is not my experience of Germany......now were you talking of France, I would agree....

On the OP, I think those who are genuinely of an open mind and are operating at a level far above sensory observations (which is no more than instinct and habit really), are not about to make an issue of weight. Whether or not you think there is a greater proportion of open minded people among what you would term the 'BDSM community' is open to debate, though I wouldn't necessarily assume this site is a representative sample.

There is a popular misconception that being over-weight is a modern phenomenon, but travellers to England were commenting centuries ago on the English propensity to be larger than those from their home country. There are many cultural reasons for that, which aren't really important here.

I've read a few times on this board that 'we all judge'. This would need to be qualified because there is a massive difference between forming an opinion of someone based on their actions and making a judgement call on the character of an individual based on their appearance. I mean, someone has just insinuated that women who conform to society's ideal have no brains, which quite clearly is as ridiculous as saying overweight women are lazy. Personally, I couldn't care less where someone is from or what they look like - I'd have a chat with them and form my opinion on what they have to say for themselves.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:20:46 PM

hopelessfool

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Should i point out that in America we also have the highest dependency on drugs, and most of the drugs cause weight retention and weight gain?

You can call it making excuses you can call it being lazy, you can say your all going to die because you people are fat. All i really hear is someone with self esteem issues. I mean does it make you feel better about yourself that you have someone whos over weight to pick on? I mean what are we kindergartners? Its got nothing to do with being politically correct and Everything to do with common decency and one very important rule, treat others like shit, your gonna get shit on in return.

You can say its only Americans that are over weight you can say its because we dont bike as often. And if American states were as small as most European towns and cities, i figured wed bike just as much. But guess what in America in most of it if you have to bike 7 miles to the store and bike 7 miles back you gonna do it? In Most major cities, More people walk and ride bikes then they drive why? because they cant get around the city with the traffic. Wait you cant get around in a car so your inspired to walk or bike to get around? Wait that sounds a whole FUCKING a hell like most of European Cities and towns. I wonder if theres a connection in that line of thinking.

For most Americans they live more then 20 miles from their work, so ....you Europeans who are so better health wise then us.. you walk/jog/ride bikes over 20 miles to and 20 miles from work? I mean you must feels so superior... Wait doesnt the uk have the same problem with obesity. In fact you can get money for disability for being fat in the uk only being a bmi of roughly 32. sure as fuck cant get that in America.

You do know marathoners, athletes all of them have the same chance of dying of a heart attack as a fat person? In fact ive seen people whove done nothing but follow strict diets all of their life and nothing but exercise their entire lives drop dead because their hearts gave out or they had a blood clot in their brain.

being fat doesnt make you unhealthy for fucks sakes. Being obese doesnt make you unhealthy. please get your facts right before you tell me that my weight makes me unhealthy. come on over to pa and ill show you whos in better shape.....

All of my blood tests that im FORCED to take several times a year because im soooo "at risk" Come back more then on the better side of normal. Im a HEALTHY Fat person. However my skinny friends have worse blood pressure then myself worse cholesterol and ask to rest half way through a walk. I might not be able to run a marathon, im not really inclined to. I might not be able to fully 100 percent keep up with someone who runs every day or does sports i dont do. But it doesnt matter if im huffing and puffing or not or sweating buckets or not. I will still work my damned hardest to try to keep in somewhat shape.( Wait when did everyone start hating on the circle, i thought round was still a shape...)

Do i give up now and again on eating healthy and dieting? Damned fucking right, If you know that if you just relax sit back and watch tv and eat junk food the next time you get on the scale your going to be 5 pounds less? would you really push yourself to exercise? I do anyway I park further away from any destination i need to go to so i can keep my heart healthy and pumping. I do for work i do for shopping i do for nearly everything simply because i know its better for me. I park a half a mile from my job so that i have to walk a mile a day to and from my car. why? Because i like to feel good about myself

But when you constantly struggle with weight (im talking doing a doctor recommended diet for 3 to 4 months) And you loose nothing, or very little (maybe 5 to 8 pounds total) would you give up? I mean if it was anything besides weight and you had little to no results say in training a sub in 4 months with very minimal results wouldnt you give up on said sub? Why is it so much wronger because its weight? Do you really look in the mirror and say I love myself because i can always pick on the fat people if things go south.

Im fat, Ive done everything with in my power to loose weight, I still work my ass off to exercise daily, and work out, do i ever see results? maybe maybe a few pounds every MONTH. I still do it to keep my heart strong and healthy. However wanting someone to say Hey look i know your over weight but your still pretty decent. Thats not wanting a crutch thats not making an excuse thats me saying hey here the FUCK i am Im white with blond hair and one hell of a spankable ass courtesy of my weight. Thats saying Just like everyone who bitches about being picked on because of their race saying i just want you to say hey im okay because im white or because im black or because im spanish. We do that fairly well as a culture do we not? So why is weight any different from race? Ya know what not everyone can be model thin and guess what most models are VERY UNHEALTHY!

Id rather be fat, Happy, and okay with who i am as a rather healthy person then starve myself and kill myself early because i put to much stress on my organs to stay waif thin. Because Eating disorders which a study on models says over 70% have are going to do more damage to your heart then eating a double cheese burger from mickyds now and again.

Now that im done my one very wonderful feeling bitch fest, flame my post away, i frankly love myself to much to care about what negative things you have to say.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:48:00 PM

DavanKael

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Why is it either/or: jiggily fat or waif thin? What about of a healthful weight? (Assuming, again, of course, that there aren't reasons beyond a person's control <truly beyond their control> that they are jiggily fat or waif thin). Why the necessity to just opt for an extreme?
I think, too, that people are mushing together the potentially very separate concepts of aesthetics and health.
Davan

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:51:48 PM

Ialdabaoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Why is it either/or: jiggily fat or waif thin? What about of a healthful weight? (Assuming, again, of course, that there aren't reasons beyond a person's control <truly beyond their control> that they are jiggily fat or waif thin). Why the necessity to just opt for an extreme?

Extremes are sexy.

quote:

I think, too, that people are mushing together the potentially very separate concepts of aesthetics and health.
Davan

Sure. My attitude has always been: go for aesthetics, and then treat health as an engineering problem. Decide: "I want to look like X" (aesthetics), and then ask: "What must I do to look like X healthily?"

Once you've answered that question, you know how much it'll cost to achieve look X. You can then rationally balance the value of looking like X against the cost of looking like X, and make an informed decision.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:57:35 PM

DavanKael

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Ialdabaoth,
Extremes are sometimes sexy. When it involve becoming dead, not so much, imo. When they infringe on my life, the lives of others, or the lives of innocents, ummmm, yeah, really not so much.
Right there with you on the cost/benefit analysis related to self. That wasn't really what I meant regarding other peoples' posts, though: a lot of folks are taking umbrage with 'anti-fat' going on about how people are saying they're unattractive when a lot of us haven't made assertions about attractiveness or lack there-of but have rather pointed out health concerns.
Davan

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 10:59:52 PM

hopelessfool

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Why is it either/or: jiggily fat or waif thin? What about of a healthful weight? (Assuming, again, of course, that there aren't reasons beyond a person's control <truly beyond their control> that they are jiggily fat or waif thin). Why the necessity to just opt for an extreme?
I think, too, that people are mushing together the potentially very separate concepts of aesthetics and health.
Davan

Because you rarely see models that are a healthy weight for their size and since the "ideal woman" is a model and "ideal sexy" is being between a size 00 and 6 and since most people are not healthy at said sizes, I say its an extreme issues because when your a size 8 your considered obese by drs by others. And a size 8 isnt that fuckin big.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:06:13 PM

Ialdabaoth

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Well, the thing is, our culture has decided that thin is in. And a lot of people CAN'T support that, no matter what they do. Plenty of people simply don't have the BONE structure to look like... ah... who's replaced Kate Moss these days? Anyways; the point is, plenty of us will never be "attractive" in a conventional sense - plenty of girls will never be a healthy size 0, any more than I will be 6'4". And we can say "fat is beautiful" and "short is sexy" and such things all we want, but there's still a huge disparity in salary and in social acceptance between short men and tall men, and a huge disparity in salary and in social acceptance between thin girls and fat girls.

For me, I only want to "play" with small, thin girls - but that's because I'm violently angry at the advantages they have, and want to "even the score" a bit. If I'm sexually attracted to someone, the last thing I want to care about is their personality; conversely, if I care about someone's personality and want to actually be their friend, the last thing I want is to be sexually attracted to them. (And yeah, I've tried both, and have the gaping wounds to prove it.)

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:07:16 PM

hopelessfool

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Ialdabaoth,
Extremes are sometimes sexy. When it involve becoming dead, not so much, imo. When they infringe on my life, the lives of others, or the lives of innocents, ummmm, yeah, really not so much.
Right there with you on the cost/benefit analysis related to self. That wasn't really what I meant regarding other peoples' posts, though: a lot of folks are taking umbrage with 'anti-fat' going on about how people are saying they're unattractive when a lot of us haven't made assertions about attractiveness or lack there-of but have rather pointed out health concerns.
Davan

FOR FUCKS SAKES BEING FAT DOESNT MAKE YOU UNHEALTHY OR MAKE YOU HAVE HEALTH CONCERNS. Does being heavy some times affect ones health sure. But then being thin some times affects your health. being black some times affects your health, being white some times affects your health. Being a fucking moron sometimes affects your health....

But the only real concern is. How much money would be lost in fad diets the resulting er trips, medicines, the resulting psych trips, weight loss programs, in dr visits, in blood work, in other health related tests, and junk food sales, if people stoped saying oh god your overweight you MUST be unhealthy.

I mean Im morbidly obese according to bmi and im still in somewhat wonderful shape. And again to point out muscle is heavier then fat so every body builder in the world most who are under 7% body fat are morbidly obease according to bmi. and Drs and should have Health concerns right? I mean really, Get your FACTS... not your opinions.

< Message edited by hopelessfool -- 5/15/2009 11:10:13 PM >

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:07:43 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Why is it either/or: jiggily fat or waif thin? What about of a healthful weight? (Assuming, again, of course, that there aren't reasons beyond a person's control <truly beyond their control> that they are jiggily fat or waif thin). Why the necessity to just opt for an extreme?
I think, too, that people are mushing together the potentially very separate concepts of aesthetics and health.
Davan

Because you rarely see models that are a healthy weight for their size and since the "ideal woman" is a model and "ideal sexy" is being between a size 00 and 6 and since most people are not healthy at said sizes, I say its an extreme issues because when your a size 8 your considered obese by drs by others. And a size 8 isnt that fuckin big.

Hi, hopelessfool----
You're making an emotional argument here and lumping concepts.
Doctors don't go by dress sizes, they go by weight ranges and bmi indices and, if you have a good doctor, some prudence and common sense thrown in.
What you're saying is "ideal sexy" at a 0-6 are not inherently healthy or unhealthy nor is that size 8 that you jumped up to obese on. And with that jump from sexy to obese in one size range, I am going to point out again that you're being emotional and extreme rather than going with tangible and actual (Assuming you're speaking of those qualifiers applying to the same person among those sizes).
Sexy isn't a medical term.
Though, I would argue that healthy is sexy but that is a personal preference and not what I am pointing out with my emphasis on healthy weight versus unhealthy weight. See what I mean?
Davan

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:10:17 PM

Ialdabaoth

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Also! Realize that plenty of people (including doctors) will use "unhealthy" (when talking about larger people) as a code word for "ugly". Plenty of other people (including doctors) will use "unhealthy" (when talking about thinner people) as a code word for "I'm jealous of how thin you are". So just because someone says you're unhealthy, doesn't mean that's what they're actually trying to communicate - people often just don't want to be called on the offensive things they're saying.

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:14:41 PM

hopelessfool

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And whats a healthy weight for one person is different for another. Which is why bmi is such a HORRIBLE indicator for ones health. I have decent muscle mass under my fat which isnt measured as part of my weight because theres fat over top, but im morbidly obese because of my weight. And a size 8 pants size means you have i think its a 36 waist. in most people to have a 36 waist means they are about 15 to 30 pounds over weight (not exact science mind you) 15 to 30 pounds over ideal weight for your height is classified on a bmi scale as slightly obese.

So Yes a size 8 is being obese even if its slightly...

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:16:11 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Ialdabaoth,
Extremes are sometimes sexy. When it involve becoming dead, not so much, imo. When they infringe on my life, the lives of others, or the lives of innocents, ummmm, yeah, really not so much.
Right there with you on the cost/benefit analysis related to self. That wasn't really what I meant regarding other peoples' posts, though: a lot of folks are taking umbrage with 'anti-fat' going on about how people are saying they're unattractive when a lot of us haven't made assertions about attractiveness or lack there-of but have rather pointed out health concerns.
Davan

FOR FUCKS SAKES BEING FAT DOESNT MAKE YOU UNHEALTHY OR MAKE YOU HAVE HEALTH CONCERNS. Does being heavy some times affect ones health sure. But then being think some times affects your health. But the only real concern is. How much money would be lost in fad diets, medicines, weight loss programs, in dr visits, in blood work, in other health related tests, and clothing sales, if people stoped saying oh god your overweight you MUST be unhealthy.

I mean Im morbidly obese according to bmi and im still in somewhat wonderful shape. And again to point out muscle is heavier then fat so every body builder in the world most who are under 7% body fat are morbidly obease according to bmi. and Drs and should have Health concerns right? I mean really, Get your FACTS... not your opinions.

Well, the scads of statistics about heart disease being, I believe, either the top or in the top 3 killers of Americans (And that's related to weight oft-times, particularly deposits of fat around the heart), demented numbers of Americans being diabetic because they're so large, etc. would disagree with you.
Sure, enormous people can be healthy and skeletal people can be healthy but that's the exception, not the rule.
Those are the facts: taxing the body's systems runs them out more quickly. A dandy way to do that is to put stress on them with weight extremes.
I know you want to be emotional but what I have said is fact-based.
I also work with cases everyday where peoples' health is damaged by their decisions to be way larger than is healthful.
Davan

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:18:47 PM

BKSir

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Amen to that, hopeless. No, I'm not a small guy, never have been. Okay, I'm a beast. Whatever. That's life. I would like to lose another 15 lbs, MAYBE 20. I'm not unhealthy as I am though, would just feel a bit better that way, and would look better, in my opinion too. However, let's be honest. I'm not 19 anymore, haven't been for a long time. 15 years and a few knee surgeries resulting in major depression play hell on someone's weight. But, I lost a LOT already, and know I could lose the rest by simply keeping a better eye on what I eat (notice NOT diet, just eat like I have a friggin brain in my head), and possibly... you know... get off my ass and exercise a little more instead of sitting in front of this big idiotbox. Would also help if I quit smoking and drinking so much damn soda.

As for the OP, I think, yes in general this 'scene'/'lifestyle'/whatever you want to call it does seem to be more open to this than the overall general populace. I don't have solid numbers, hell I even COULD be wrong, but just judging from what I've seen first hand, we're at least a damn sight better than your typical New York club scene. ;)

So hey, as long as you're in good health, and you're happy with YOU, what more could you want?

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:19:03 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Also! Realize that plenty of people (including doctors) will use "unhealthy" (when talking about larger people) as a code word for "ugly". Plenty of other people (including doctors) will use "unhealthy" (when talking about thinner people) as a code word for "I'm jealous of how thin you are". So just because someone says you're unhealthy, doesn't mean that's what they're actually trying to communicate - people often just don't want to be called on the offensive things they're saying.

Sure, that's true. I, however, won't take responsibility for what other people do or say. I will take absolute responsibility for what I do and say.
When I've been speaking about health, I've been speaking about just that, not my sense of aesthetics. Remember, I've been chubby and I've been scrawney, so I've gotten the brunt of both of those sides of value judgments. And, you know, I have preferences too but, again, when I'm speaking of health, I'm not making an aesthetic judgment about a person.
Davan

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RE: Are BDSMers better at size acceptance? - 5/15/2009 11:20:34 PM

hopelessfool

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And is Healthful decided for each and every person based on each and every person? No its not, its based on a generalized scale that is off base for most of the people measured on it. Bmi doesnt take in account muscle, or ones bone structure, ( yes it does matter someone with a less broad shoulders is going to weight less then someone with broader ones, why? it takes more skin and muscle to streach across a larger set of shoulders then a smaller one...

When im judged on a scale that takes account for MY body the way MY body is, ill be fine and dandy with whats healthy and what isnt.

< Message edited by hopelessfool -- 5/15/2009 11:22:36 PM >

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" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to DavanKael)

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