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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s absolutely torture"


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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:05:17 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You of all people should know that disagreement doesnt make someone an idiot.


I’m not calling him an idiot for disagreeing with me.  I’m calling him an idiot for placing libertarianism next to fascism.

quote:

You are talking about the ideal of libertarianism,


Exactly.  The idea of libertarianism (despite its consequences) is anti-authoritarian - the exact opposite of the very authoritarian fascism.


quote:

while the above addresses the ultimate consequences of libertarianism. Complete freedom from any kind of government interference is the ideal. However, what happens to a society as that "complete freedom" evolves? Since there is no means of tempering the effects of freedom (ie no way to enforce any sort of equality) power begins to accumulate in fewer and fewer hands..survival of the fittest taken to the extreme. Eventually that power evolves into tyranny of the few over the many, and since it has approached it from the left, moves towards Facism/monarchy.


Agreed.  Which is why, despite what some people around here may think - I am not a libertarian.

quote:

As you move from right to left across the spectrum again power becomes concentrated in fewer and fewer hands...those who set the rules of "Equality" and have the power to make themselves "more equal" and the evolution is toward totalitarianism.

If you want to bend the line into a circle (thereby losing "left and right" directions) Facism/monarchy and totalitarianism wind up next to each other, which is why they ultimately are used (incorrectly) interchangeably.

Political compass is dual axis schema that again loses the traditional distinctions  between left and right (based on French parliament seating).


Loosing the “traditional distinctions” is exactly what we should do.  The traditional single axis is outmoded.  Fascism has more in common with communism (both are authoritarian) than it does with libertarianism.


So you agree that the ultimate consequences of the libertarian ideal is evolution to Facism, but placing them together on the traditional left/right line is "idiotic"?  I thnk youve been spending too much time on this forum and been infected.

If you want to discuss "loosing" a single axis, go ahead. Thats not what the thread was about, since it proclaimed MM as "right wing" which only has meaning on a single axis.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:13:13 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Actually the citations completely disprove your point. 

But keeping repeating LA LA LA LA to yourself, it's obvious you still believe it (as usual).

       Actually the citations amount to one 'expert' opinion, on a highly volatile subject, in a politically charged climate.  In other words, they don't amount to shit.

Ooh, look everyone, TH put the word expert in quotes, subtly casting doubts on whether he really is an expert.  Isn't that clever?

Sadly for your 'argument' TH (see how that works?), the expert is, let me see, oh yes the guy who the FBI selected to interrogate one of the top members of Al Qaeda.  And oh yeah, he's also the guy who managed (through non-torture methods) to get crucial information which led to the capture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Jose Padilla.

But gee, what am I saying, you got Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh on your side.  I guess you win the battle of the 'experts'.

quote:


      It also address's the tangential aspect of whether torture is an effective way to get actionable intelligence, rather than the question of whether it is an effective way to torture someone. 

Torture is an effective way to torture someone?  Damn, I can't argue with that logic TH, ya got me there.  I'm dazzled by your intellect.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:16:29 PM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		No, libertarianism is of course closer to faScism, in the sense of its being pro-self-entitlement/anti-egalitarian/anti-social.

"On the right wing vs left wing diagrams above, socialism and libertarianism fall outside the realm of democracy. Whereas modern liberalism and American conservatism are best seen as heuristics (decision-making shortcuts), socialism and libertarianism are ideologies which invariably lead to tyranny" is mere right-wing puffery.

In real life and real history:
Modern socialism as in Scandinavian countries is true democracy and as we've seen for decades, prevents tyranny. American conservatism is corporate and religious white male oligarchy, which led to the decade of fear led by anti-intellectual and money-mad sociopaths in the Bush puppet regnum.

And back to the original post: all water-board deny-ers should experience it, and discover even in 'torture-Light' where they can instantly stop it at any time and know it will be, it is torture.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:23:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`ve heard his shtick,seen his little ditties on Fox & Friends,....

He`s a right winger.


Owner, you need to take off those myopic eye glasses you're wearing.
Life is more than "left vs right" or "dem vs repub." There are a WHOLE BUNCH of people out here who are none of those things.
It seems all you lefties and righties want to do is bicker and argue. That certainly doesn't make people want to join you.
This is (one) reason that people like me simply will not vote for repubs or dems anymore.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:24:06 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		So that's both Christopher Hitchers and Mancow Muller that have been waterboarded and both say it is torture despite both having previously  supported it as a so called enhanced interrogation technique. I have to respect that some righties can be convinced that torture is torture by the simple act of being tortured themselves.

How many more right wingers have to admit waterboarding is torture before everybody admits it?

(in reply to Tantriqu)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:38:58 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that's both Christopher Hitchers and Mancow Muller that have been waterboarded and both say it is torture despite both having previously  supported it as a so called enhanced interrogation technique. I have to respect that some righties can be convinced that torture is torture by the simple act of being tortured themselves.

How many more right wingers have to admit waterboarding is torture before everybody admits it?

And at least they had the balls to actually go through with it.

Unlike Sean Hannity, who said "Sure I'll do it", then... (cue crickets chirping)  It's been what, 25 days now? 

Once a weasel, always a weasel...



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:40:08 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

So you agree that the ultimate consequences of the libertarian ideal is evolution to Facism,


I agree that the ultimate consequence is evolution to an authoritarian system, although not necessarily fascism.

quote:

but placing them together on the traditional left/right line is "idiotic"?


Yes.  Because, I repeat, they espouse different ideas on authoritarianism even if the consequences of those ideas is similar.

quote:

I thnk youve been spending too much time on this forum and been infected.


The only thing these forums have infected me with is exasperation at the inability of some individuals to grasp subtle distinctions and/or take a more expansive view of things.

quote:

If you want to discuss "loosing" a single axis, go ahead.


I don’t want to discuss loosing a single axis, I am merely stating that the single axis diagram of the political spectrum is outdated. 

quote:

Thats not what the thread was about, since it proclaimed MM as "right wing" which only has meaning on a single axis.


Which means the thread is limiting itself.  As for this Mancow dude, I’ve never heard of him before – so what do I know about him?

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:47:48 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Basic rule of thumb there;  any position that doesn't line up with the daily talking points is right-wing, neocon.

   And of course it's torture, and a highly effective form that goes directly to the panic center.  That's why we use it.



Basic rule of neo-cons/republicans,when the subject is uncomfortable or embarrassing,change the subject or hijack.

Right,..Rich?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/22/2009 10:54:30 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that's both Christopher Hitchers and Mancow Muller that have been waterboarded and both say it is torture despite both having previously  supported it as a so called enhanced interrogation technique. I have to respect that some righties can be convinced that torture is torture by the simple act of being tortured themselves.

How many more right wingers have to admit waterboarding is torture before everybody admits it?


Ive never been waterboarded, but I have been "everything else" on the list of supposed torture....prolonged standing, sleep deprivation, continual exposure to loud noises etc   and they arent torture.   Prolonged exposure to tear gas is very close to waterboarding as far as the panic it causes, since you do everything you can not to breathe it in, and that isnt torture either.  Discomfort, no matter how extreme, is not torture, period, whatever "right wingers who changed their mind" think.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 12:14:27 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Discomfort, no matter how extreme, is not torture, period, whatever "right wingers who changed their mind" think.


...how on earth do you define torture then?

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 1:05:05 AM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Discomfort, no matter how extreme, is not torture, period, whatever "right wingers who changed their mind" think.


...how on earth do you define torture then?


Severe pain or suffering

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 1:32:34 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that's both Christopher Hitchers and Mancow Muller that have been waterboarded and both say it is torture despite both having previously  supported it as a so called enhanced interrogation technique. I have to respect that some righties can be convinced that torture is torture by the simple act of being tortured themselves.

How many more right wingers have to admit waterboarding is torture before everybody admits it?


Irrelevant.

They consider it torture because they're weak. Any true right-winger is a giant of a man with balls of brass, and would laugh off waterboarding - hell, he'd forcibly sprout gills just to spite the water-boarders, if not for the fact that that smacks of "evolution" and any true right-winger doesn't truck with that. But the point is, mamby-pamby "conservatives" who freak out and call such things "torture" are aiding and abetting our enemies, as is anyone who talks about them in any way other than to demand that they turn in their testicles. Why do you hate America?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 3:54:49 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		If you listen to his show, he openly says he is a GOP'er supporter and a conservative, so I don't understand why!  when he states he is, and supports conservatives,  people say he is not

I think he show sucks, He has been based out of Chicago for about 15 years and last year he got picked up to go national.  He has always said on his show he is a CONSERVATIVE  and has never backed away from that, he states it on Fox and in his interviews

Does it really matter what he supports?  He got waterboarded for 6 seconds, he said he thought he would be able to last for at least 30-45 seconds. 
The whole point being, before this he always supported the position that "waterboarding" was NOT torture, after enduring it for 6 seconds be now says YES, waterboarding is torture. 

So because people argue over what they feel his political views are, how does that take away from the fact he now supports 70% of the peole in this country who believe waterboarding is in fact torture.

Which brings up the question, if you believe this is not torture, then you must believe it is OK to use on our troops when they are captured.  Now several GOP officals claim it is OK for us to use it on our prinsoners, but not OK for it to be used on our troops.  How does that work?


< Message edited by housesub4you -- 5/23/2009 4:07:11 AM >

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 4:09:20 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		Is that why the little wusses at FOX who said on the air they would be waterboarded have failed to actually follow through with their promise?

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 4:39:04 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Basic rule of thumb there;  any position that doesn't line up with the daily talking points is right-wing, neocon.

  


Is that like the opposite rule of thumb. Any positon not lining up with the right is a leftie ? Pot , kettle and black i think.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 5:10:44 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Discomfort, no matter how extreme, is not torture, period, whatever "right wingers who changed their mind" think.


...how on earth do you define torture then?


Severe pain or suffering

Waterboarding causes the instinctual drowning response. IOW the part sof the brain we have no control of freak out and tries to make you do something, anything, to stop drowning but the person being waterboarded is physically restrained so what happens is you have the full on sensation of imminent death. Which certainly sounds like severe suffering to me.

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 6:10:48 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

  Basic rule of thumb there;  any position that doesn't line up with the daily talking points is right-wing, neocon.




Is that like the opposite rule of thumb. Any positon not lining up with the right is a leftie ? Pot , kettle and black i think.


He just wanted to sound important and have something to say.

Neither of which, did he do.

In reply to DomKen`s last post:

We shouldn`t use a term like waterboarding.It sounds like an amusement park ride or something folks do at the sea shore for fun.

It`s prolonged suffocation/drowning.Not stopped in time,it will kill someone.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/23/2009 6:18:13 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 6:24:18 AM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		I think... (and this is just me) the fact that Hannity has ignored the whole thing since he made his initial offer to be waterboarded, speaks volumes about what his real opinion of the technique is. He's obviously scared spitless by the idea, and is hoping the whole thing blows over so he can get back to being a spineless weasel of a commentator.

Oh well, at least he didn't get his ass handed to him by the women of the view, like Beck did this week....

And at least he didn't cave in, like Rush did, begging MSNBC to stop hammering him on his hate speech and condecension, and playing that "weebles wobble" clip of him from the C-PAC appearance over and over and over....

Four months in to the Obama administration, and the blowhards of right wing radio are taking hits left and right. The GOP is rudderless, and their numbers are dropping through the floor. Cheany is digging a new hole for himself with every daily speech... The CIA is being raked over the coals for lying to us, to congress and about the connection between Iraq and AQ being a "slam dunk." The "bad apples" of the abu graihib abuses are being put into proper perspective, showing that their orders came from the very top of our government, and it appears that those officials will have to answer for their crimes...


(Just for a moment... I have to stop, and breathe it all in...) Ahhhhhhh! Life is getting better daily! :)

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:04:13 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Torture is an effective way to torture someone?  Damn, I can't argue with that logic TH, ya got me there.  I'm dazzled by your intellect.



         Cagey, Cagey, Cagey...  This is why I so rarely bother to reply to you.  You'd rather snark, than think.  Heaven forbid someone might use "it" to refer to more than one particular thing.  "It," your cite, and "it," waterboarding.  

         Did you even bother to read the rest of the sentence where I put quotes on 'expert?' 

       One more time.  Nothing in the OP asks whether torture is a good way to get information.  It asks if waterboarding is torture.  I answered that.   

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:10:30 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Mancow is a shock jock, a shitty one at that...Conservative my ass.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 40
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