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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 4:09:09 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		So, Rich, is that true? You're advocating torturing people just for the sake of torturing them? Perhaps I've been misunderstanding the debate. That wasn't my impression.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 4:39:42 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

Silly me, I was using the actual definition of "effective", to wit, "producing desired results".  In this context, "results" being "gaining useful information", and not, say, "pain for its own sake". 

Take a quick look at the forum heading.  Is it "BDSM at Home"?  No, it's "Politics and Religion".

Catching on yet?



Rich was not talking about gaining information, he was talking about torture. If the desired effect is to torture someone, then waterboarding is effective. And, yes, I'm well aware of the title of the thread and while it's not BDSM at home, neither is it Sesame Street, so you can try posting like an adult or you can be ignored. Your choice.


And if the desired effect is to see if it's effective at being "Words beginning with W", then Waterboarding fills the bill there as well.  Both are silly word games that add no value.  Neither one belongs in this forum. 

But I'm glad to see that you've learned this forum is not BDSM at home.  Look at that in conjunction with "context" and perhaps you'll see my point.




< Message edited by Cagey18 -- 5/23/2009 4:44:35 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 5:00:58 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Liz Cheney Reveals That Fear Of Prosecution Motivates Dad’s Media Blitz Defending Torture

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/22/cheney-fear-prosecution/

watch it

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 5:19:51 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
im not moving anything. The other techniques were mentioned previously and I included them here. "Everyone who supported it who has submitted to it" has changed their mind? "

I personally know about 80 people who submitted to it who didnt change their mind  (Marines at Camp Pendleton who were waterboarded as part of training) , so there you are just dead wrong. And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall.

Now you're claiming marines who underwent SERE training talked about it. Which is a violation of the National Security Act. Now since that point is driven home quite thoroughly in USN SERE training I strongly doubt that the USMC, which is if anything more careful about such matters, failed to make it clear. So in short either the jarheads were talking out their ass, quite possible, or you are.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 5:27:41 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So, Rich, is that true? You're advocating torturing people just for the sake of torturing them? Perhaps I've been misunderstanding the debate. That wasn't my impression.



         I'm a sadist, Panda, in a very happy relationship with a masochist.  I torture for fun frequently. 

      In the context of this discussion though, no, I'm not advocating for torture as a routine sort of  thing.  I'd be perfectly happy with it being a legend, and only spoken of in whispers.  Ever heard the stories some parents tell of the day their ___ came home from school and announced that spankings are illegal?  I don't want to encourage that sort of cockiness when captured enemies sit down with the "good cop."

      I will completely agree that the non-fun-loving sort of torture is a very bad thing, with awful consequences.  Shouldn't happen.  I will not agree that there is nothing that could possibly be a greater evil, though.  Put enough innocent lives on the line, values have to adjust to each other.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 5:29:28 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Actually, he is a Libertarian, as any cursory google would show.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancow_Muller#Personal_life

Unless, of course, you are dumping Libertarians into the same mix as the "Right Wing" .... and then you really need to do more research....

Edited to add link:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian

Don't know who contributed all of that to Wiki but I have never read or heard anyone associate libertarianism with the left at all. Free-market capitalism is also a moderate or centrist concept the biggest barrier to its functioning correctly anytime is that it has never existed...anywhere. Some believe that a truly free market will never exist because of the greedy competition and the inherent venality of the persons involved.

The Chomsky's of the world believe that this inherant greed and venality results in a concentration of wealth and power (as did many of founding fathers and even later) and the allocation of ALL resources begin to flow quite 'undemocratically' to the wealthy and powerful.

The libertarian may or may not believe in risking paper for paper in the capitalist 'economy.' He would much rather see the entire economy devolved back to the states and let state's right rule while they compete for the most open and 'free' markets. This would work if the federal govt. (courts) used the IC clause only as a means to even the economic playing field (commodotities)  between states. Laisse Faire (unregulated) capitalsim is the rule with the libertarian.

As for Hannity, of course water-boarding is torture and he's a fool for thinking otherwise. I doubt he could spell half of these words and doesn't measure-up for me as having the brains to assemble any cogent economic preference beyond that which would keep the repubs in power.




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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 5:53:58 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
quote:


No no, not from you...  CnU and his ilk would be wailing about how wrong waterboarding is (if it were introduced, or still practiced)--how Obama is violating the Geneva Convention, and how it's affecting the trade deficit with other countries, etc., etc...

dont put words in my mouth, you dont have a goddam clue about what I would do or say, as evidenced by you being 100% wrong here.

Nah, see, putting words in your mouth is inferring from a statement you made, and twisting the words around to be something you didn't say.  This however is predicting, based on your past behavior.

Feel free, though, to deny that you would be wailing about President Obama, if he were advocating waterboarding, and that instead you'd be championing President Obama's wise decision.  If you do, as a prize--I'll admit I was wrong! 

[insert Final Jeopardy theme song here]


(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 6:49:02 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


      I'm a sadist, Panda, in a very happy relationship with a masochist.  I torture for fun frequently. 


Yeah, I know, but that's not... ah, fergit. You know what I mean!


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
   In the context of this discussion though, no, I'm not advocating for torture as a routine sort of  thing.  I'd be perfectly happy with it being a legend, and only spoken of in whispers.  Ever heard the stories some parents tell of the day their ___ came home from school and announced that spankings are illegal?  I don't want to encourage that sort of cockiness when captured enemies sit down with the "good cop."


What's that Jack Nicholson line from  "A Few Good Men?" Something like, "On the record, I disapprove of Code Reds, and do not allow them in my unit. Off the record, I will tell you that it is an invaluable part of military training, and essential to small-unit discipline." Something like that. I've probably got it wrong, cuz it's been too long since I've seen that movie, but even if I have the quote messed up a bit  it still illustrates the point. I know this is going to sound as though I'm contradicting myself, but I know that torture is going to happen, and I accept that. I don't approve of it, but I know that it's an imperfect world, and you're never going to be able to completely prevent non-coms and junior officers from sometimes overstepping their bounds. People are human.

Where I have a problem is with the Commander in Chief deciding to make it official national policy. The minute the country says, "Ok, we approve of this, this is who we are now," America becomes a different nation. We've lost something we can never get back, taken a step in a direction the Founding Fathers would have been horrified to see us go. And once you start down that road, it's pretty damned hard to get back on the path you used to travel, the path that always  led away from where this one leads to. What's on the other end of that direction is a whole host of things that are directly, 180 degrees opposed to everything this country was supposed to stand for.

How long before a country that condones torturing terrorism suspects decides it's really not that big a deal to start torturing murder suspects? And then, armed robbery suspects? And then burglary suspects? Where does it stop? A country that considers torture an acceptable tool to obtain information has opened a whole new door, has removed one of the barriers that stand between a civilized society and a tribe of barbarians. And once that barrier has been removed, it's forever after only a question of how far in that direction we're going to go in any given circumstance. That's the problem I have. It's the kind of unclean that you can never really wash off.



quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
   I will completely agree that the non-fun-loving sort of torture is a very bad thing, with awful consequences.  Shouldn't happen.  I will not agree that there is nothing that could possibly be a greater evil, though.  Put enough innocent lives on the line, values have to adjust to each other.


Let's put it this way, Rich. If this were a different thread, with a different title - like, say, "How Far Would You Go If You Had A Terrorist Who Knew Where A Nuclear Bomb Was Going To Go Off?" - we might be having a very different discussion.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 5/23/2009 7:01:43 PM >

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Panda, panda, burning bright
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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:46:07 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda



I'm positive about it, Rich. The history on this is clear. 60 years ago, we were hanging Japanese soldiers for doing this to American POWs.



Incorrect. that was the Japanese water cure, not waterboarding. It starts out the same, but they fill the stomach with water till its painfully distended and then jump on it.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:48:35 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall.


This is one of the most illogical arguments I've ever seen you make. So what you're saying is, "I can hack it, so it isn't torture." If I walk up and kick you in the balls, and you can hack that, I suppose that wasn't assault then?



Straw man. The claim was that "everyone" who has been waterboarded changed their mind about torture. A group that is most familiar with it did not change their mind. Done.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:50:09 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
im not moving anything. The other techniques were mentioned previously and I included them here. "Everyone who supported it who has submitted to it" has changed their mind? "

I personally know about 80 people who submitted to it who didnt change their mind  (Marines at Camp Pendleton who were waterboarded as part of training) , so there you are just dead wrong. And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall.

Now you're claiming marines who underwent SERE training talked about it. Which is a violation of the National Security Act. Now since that point is driven home quite thoroughly in USN SERE training I strongly doubt that the USMC, which is if anything more careful about such matters, failed to make it clear. So in short either the jarheads were talking out their ass, quite possible, or you are.


It is not a violation of the NSA. Care to figure out why?

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:52:17 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
quote:


No no, not from you...  CnU and his ilk would be wailing about how wrong waterboarding is (if it were introduced, or still practiced)--how Obama is violating the Geneva Convention, and how it's affecting the trade deficit with other countries, etc., etc...

dont put words in my mouth, you dont have a goddam clue about what I would do or say, as evidenced by you being 100% wrong here.

Nah, see, putting words in your mouth is inferring from a statement you made, and twisting the words around to be something you didn't say.  This however is predicting, based on your past behavior.

Feel free, though, to deny that you would be wailing about President Obama, if he were advocating waterboarding, and that instead you'd be championing President Obama's wise decision.  If you do, as a prize--I'll admit I was wrong! 

[insert Final Jeopardy theme song here]




Im pro torture, period. I dont give a rats ass who authorizes it.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 7:54:48 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda



I'm positive about it, Rich. The history on this is clear. 60 years ago, we were hanging Japanese soldiers for doing this to American POWs.



Incorrect. that was the Japanese water cure, not waterboarding. It starts out the same, but they fill the stomach with water till its painfully distended and then jump on it.


Oh. That's OK, then.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 8:07:48 PM   
harddaddy4u


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/6/2009
Status: offline 		Marines are waterboarded as part of their training. Big deal.

If waterboarding some slimebag terrorist will prevent the loss of one American life, then of course we should do it.
It has already proven beneficial in getting information that prevented other terrorist acts - that's a matter of record, even if the naive, pro-appeasement Obama administration won't release the memos proving it.

You liberals need to stop being so damn pretentiously sanctimonious. Advanced interrogation techniques work and are necessary in a world where terrorists cut people's heads off and fly planes into buildings. And no amount of sitting around singing "Kumbaya" is going to change the fact that there are evil people who want to destroy us.

Liberals blamed Bush for not preventing 9-11, and then they spent the rest of his presidency trying to hamstring his efforts in trying to prevent another one.

Which he succeeded in doing, by the way - no thanks to the American left.


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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 8:30:36 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18


And if the desired effect is to see if it's effective at being "Words beginning with W", then Waterboarding fills the bill there as well.  Both are silly word games that add no value.  Neither one belongs in this forum. 

But I'm glad to see that you've learned this forum is not BDSM at home.  Look at that in conjunction with "context" and perhaps you'll see my point.





I see that you have made your choice. Have fun on Sesame Street.

edited to correct quoting



< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 5/23/2009 8:40:44 PM >

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 8:33:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
im not moving anything. The other techniques were mentioned previously and I included them here. "Everyone who supported it who has submitted to it" has changed their mind? "

I personally know about 80 people who submitted to it who didnt change their mind  (Marines at Camp Pendleton who were waterboarded as part of training) , so there you are just dead wrong. And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall.

Now you're claiming marines who underwent SERE training talked about it. Which is a violation of the National Security Act. Now since that point is driven home quite thoroughly in USN SERE training I strongly doubt that the USMC, which is if anything more careful about such matters, failed to make it clear. So in short either the jarheads were talking out their ass, quite possible, or you are.


It is not a violation of the NSA. Care to figure out why?

SERE is classified. Any discussion of what went on in SERE is a felony.

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 8:38:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harddaddy4u

Marines are waterboarded as part of their training. Big deal.

If waterboarding some slimebag terrorist will prevent the loss of one American life, then of course we should do it.
It has already proven beneficial in getting information that prevented other terrorist acts - that's a matter of record, even if the naive, pro-appeasement Obama administration won't release the memos proving it.

I will again quote the CIA on this, "enhanced interrogation techniques did not result in any actionable intelligence."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=1

For those not used to CIA speak that means torture didn't result in any useful information and therefore didn't save any lives.

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RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 8:53:41 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
im not moving anything. The other techniques were mentioned previously and I included them here. "Everyone who supported it who has submitted to it" has changed their mind? "

I personally know about 80 people who submitted to it who didnt change their mind  (Marines at Camp Pendleton who were waterboarded as part of training) , so there you are just dead wrong. And since we are talking about techniques used on people with military training, their experience is far more relevant than a bad imitation of Scott Ferrall.

Now you're claiming marines who underwent SERE training talked about it. Which is a violation of the National Security Act. Now since that point is driven home quite thoroughly in USN SERE training I strongly doubt that the USMC, which is if anything more careful about such matters, failed to make it clear. So in short either the jarheads were talking out their ass, quite possible, or you are.


It is not a violation of the NSA. Care to figure out why?

SERE is classified. Any discussion of what went on in SERE is a felony.


Incorrect.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 10:10:47 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

And if the desired effect is to see if it's effective at being "Words beginning with W", then Waterboarding fills the bill there as well. Both are silly word games that add no value. Neither one belongs in this forum.

So we agree this forum is not BDSM at home nor Sesame Street, but rather "Politics and Religion". Look at that in conjunction with "context" and perhaps you'll see my point.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I see that you have made your choice. Have fun on Sesame Street.

Yeah, okay, that was over the top.  More appropriate version above. 

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Right Wing Radio Host Water-boarded.."it`s abs... - 5/23/2009 10:49:45 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harddaddy4u


It has already proven beneficial in getting information that prevented other terrorist acts - that's a matter of record, even if the naive, pro-appeasement Obama administration won't release the memos proving it.


If the proof is being kept secret, as you say, then how exactly is it a "matter of record?"



quote:

ORIGINAL: harddaddy4u
Advanced interrogation techniques work and are necessary in a world where terrorists cut people's heads off and fly planes into buildings. And no amount of sitting around singing "Kumbaya" is going to change the fact that there are evil people who want to destroy us.


And that's OK. You shouldn't feel ashamed of that. There's nothing wrong with being afraid, and it's not my place to judge you for letting the fear overwhelm you and render you unable to make a rational assessment of the actual risk. I sincerely hope that after a couple of years of leadership from a saner, more courageous administration, you'll begin to feel safe again, and the world will feel like a more rational place to you once more. Good luck. I'm pulling for you!


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to harddaddy4u)
Profile   Post #: 100
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