christian terrorism? (Full Version)

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philosophy -> christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 11:13:26 AM)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090531/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting

.......*sighs*......i thought we were over this........



TheHeretic -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 11:18:34 AM)

       Apparently not.  Wouldn't it be surprising if the killing turned out to have nothing to do with his work?  A jealous husband or something?

    



philosophy -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 11:26:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Apparently not.  Wouldn't it be surprising if the killing turned out to have nothing to do with his work?  A jealous husband or something?

   


...actually, i hope it does turn out that way. However, i'm a bit pessimistic about it.



Aneirin -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 11:29:04 AM)

It is sad, but where there is religion, there are always the nutjobs who use the religion as a justification for their actions. In every case, it is the actions of the extreme minority worldwide that ruin it for everyone else.

I just wonder sometimes, how many people exist within religions that would be of interest to the physchiatry profession, maybe religious extremists are the ones the men in white coats have'nt got their hands on yet.



TheHeretic -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 11:38:05 AM)

       Phil, only because I know you get the difference between talking about a set of beliefs, and endorsing those beliefs, or defending the actions growing from them, let me take the other side.

      I disagree with the implications of your thread title.  This sort of crime doesn't strike me so much as an act of terrorism, as an act in defense of others.  I have been pretty clear in my position on the abortion issue (short summary - to the left of Pres. Obama) but for the people who kill like this, those fetuses (feti?) are innocent lives.  The abortionist is a serial killer, with a free pass from the courts.

     I would call it a vigilante killing, rather than terrorism.



philosophy -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:07:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Phil, only because I know you get the difference between talking about a set of beliefs, and endorsing those beliefs, or defending the actions growing from them, let me take the other side.

     I disagree with the implications of your thread title.  This sort of crime doesn't strike me so much as an act of terrorism, as an act in defense of others.  I have been pretty clear in my position on the abortion issue (short summary - to the left of Pres. Obama) but for the people who kill like this, those fetuses (feti?) are innocent lives.  The abortionist is a serial killer, with a free pass from the courts.

    I would call it a vigilante killing, rather than terrorism.


..heh, well you wont be surprised if i disagree. i think (if it turns out to be an anti-abortionist who did the deed) this is terrorism. Some inside the IRA committed atrocity in what they thought was defence of those who were being oppressed. McVeigh bombed that building in Oklahoma in defence of what he thought was the real America. The 9/11 bombers probably thought they were defending Islam.
i consider terrorism to be ideologically driven crime, usually murder. Defending the rights of an unborn foetus is an ideology. Taking that further into murder is terrorism....in my view.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:12:59 PM)

Yep all religions are dangerous, especiall those Taoist and Buddhist. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It is sad, but where there is religion, there are always the nutjobs who use the religion as a justification for their actions. In every case, it is the actions of the extreme minority worldwide that ruin it for everyone else.

I just wonder sometimes, how many people exist within religions that would be of interest to the physchiatry profession, maybe religious extremists are the ones the men in white coats have'nt got their hands on yet.




TheHeretic -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:14:51 PM)

       It's a fine line.  If the attack had been on the clinic, or the office staff, I would be with you in calling it a terrorist act.  In this case, by targeting the abortionist himself, I think it stays inside that line. 



Arpig -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:22:01 PM)

So it takes more than one victim for it to be terrorism....how do you feel about the word assassination then?



breatheasone -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:30:16 PM)

~~FR~~
Its a real shame stuff like this happens. 



Sanity -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:32:13 PM)


Those damn Atheists may well turn out to be the worst of the bunch. After all, how many did Stalin kill?

And that's just to start...

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yep all religions are dangerous, especiall those Taoist and Buddhist. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It is sad, but where there is religion, there are always the nutjobs who use the religion as a justification for their actions. In every case, it is the actions of the extreme minority worldwide that ruin it for everyone else.

I just wonder sometimes, how many people exist within religions that would be of interest to the physchiatry profession, maybe religious extremists are the ones the men in white coats have'nt got their hands on yet.





Apocalypso -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:34:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I disagree with the implications of your thread title.  This sort of crime doesn't strike me so much as an act of terrorism, as an act in defense of others.  I have been pretty clear in my position on the abortion issue (short summary - to the left of Pres. Obama) but for the people who kill like this, those fetuses (feti?) are innocent lives.  The abortionist is a serial killer, with a free pass from the courts.
Wouldn't that definition apply to pretty much every terrorist group though?  Almost all terrorism is ideologically driven, and almost as many terrorists would claim that their actions were defensive



Musicmystery -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:42:24 PM)

quote:

Yep all religions are dangerous, especially those Taoist and Buddhist. ;)


Hi Orion,

I know you're joking, of course, but it's an important point and one avoided in our society.

I'm an atheist (neither Taoism nor Buddhism recogize gods), but I respect others' beliefs. When applied positively, theistic beliefs can support good communities and well-examined ethical lives. These are admirable contributions.

But when used to intervene in society, we have essentially people who hear voices, or who believe the books they read were written by people who heard voices, or that their leaders hear voices, and those people are dangerous, whatever the voices say.

Sorry to put it so starkly, but when "God's will" is the heart of both policy and actions defying that policy as it appears in law, the stakes are high, and the "faithful" become criminal (and illogical, since the rest of the voice-hearing faithful received different messages).

If only society could arrive at their ethical codes through logical means rather than indoctrination or whim, we could have meaningful debates--and a fair, just, yes, even moral (as distinct from the broader ethics) society, where the faithful could again focus on positive contribution instead of self-righteous disruption.




TheHeretic -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 12:53:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

So it takes more than one victim for it to be terrorism....how do you feel about the word assassination then?


      Body count is not the deciding factor, Arpig.   I'm not sure where you got that.  Assassination would be a good word here, yes.



awmslave -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 1:04:31 PM)

I read the victim was a Christian. The article does not identify the shooter. Radical anti-abortion views are not necessarily  Christian associated. 



TheHeretic -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 1:05:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
Wouldn't that definition apply to pretty much every terrorist group though?  Almost all terrorism is ideologically driven, and almost as many terrorists would claim that their actions were defensive



           That's a good point, Apoc.  Perhaps the difference would be one of defending against individual acts vs. collective acts.  If the killer had gone after the abortionist's secretary, I would be calling this differently.



DomImus -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 1:38:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I would call it a vigilante killing, rather than terrorism.


I see it as both. It's a vigilante killing of the doctor himself while it sends or attempts to send a message to others. The heart of the term terrorism is terror - those acts are designed it elicit fear from a particular group of people.

I think a better title for the thread would be "christian extremist terrorism".



TheHeretic -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 1:41:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus
christian extremist




          That term is mostly considered redundant anymore, I think...



lazarus1983 -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 1:44:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Those damn Atheists may well turn out to be the worst of the bunch. After all, how many did Stalin kill?

And that's just to start...

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yep all religions are dangerous, especiall those Taoist and Buddhist. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It is sad, but where there is religion, there are always the nutjobs who use the religion as a justification for their actions. In every case, it is the actions of the extreme minority worldwide that ruin it for everyone else.

I just wonder sometimes, how many people exist within religions that would be of interest to the physchiatry profession, maybe religious extremists are the ones the men in white coats have'nt got their hands on yet.





Ah, but Stalin wasn't a true atheist. Isn't that what christians like to do to defend their extreme brethren? They claim that they're not true christians. Quick and easy way to absolve themselves.



philosophy -> RE: christian terrorism? (5/31/2009 1:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I read the victim was a Christian. The article does not identify the shooter. Radical anti-abortion views are not necessarily  Christian associated. 



....fair point. We'll have to wait and see.......



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