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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 2:28:54 AM

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To get back to the purpose of this thread, the US relationship with Israel benefits the US in several ways:

The Israelis provide us with MUCH NEEDED assistance in intelligence (remember how ineffictive the CIA was when Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait? They said that they didn't know it was coming but it was all over the press and radio in the Arab world).

They jointly develop weapons, pharmacueticals and information technology platforms with Americans.

Israelis were important during the cold war and have kept Russia's power contained/down in that region. We may think that isn't important anymore because the cold war is over. That isn't true. Russians are selling wepons all over the Middle East. This winter, during the trouble with Gaza, when the Israelis finally went in, they found many Russians. Some were married to Arabs who formerly studied in Russian Universities the others were there on . . .. um. . . . well you know. . . Russki business ;)

Here's a RUssian aritcle that glosses over that one
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081229/119221140.html

For more info overall on the US relationship with Israel from the perspective of a a member of the House Appropriations Committee’s subcommittees on Defense; State, Foreign Operations; and Agriculture. Who also sits on the House Science and Technology Committee:

http://thehill.com/op-eds/u.s.s-valuable-strategic-relationship-with-israel-2008-06-03.html

(in reply to BadJezebel)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 3:25:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic

The US shows class and respect, as all Christians are inheritantly Jews.

Yeah, that must be it. For sure, nobody else in the history of the world ever had any ethical principles or respect for human nature. And even if they did, those dumb Founders wouldn't have known about them. Plato who? Gita what? What else do we owe you, my humble fellow? There must be more. Don't hold back. Tell us how you feel.

K.

(in reply to aphotic)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 4:57:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic

We just want our small piece of what we believe we claimed thousands of years ago.

I presume you are referring to when the Hebrews came and wreaked wholesale murder on the inhabitants of the land in order to steal the territory for themselves?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/8/2009 5:03:13 AM >

(in reply to aphotic)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 5:02:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Geez, Kirata, I'm browsing through here during a bout of insomnia and I read that you're a liberal now! Damn!

And all this time I thought I was inscrutable.

K.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 5:21:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic

We just want our small piece of what we believe we claimed thousands of years ago.

I presume you are referring to when the Hebrews came and wreaked wholesale murder on the inhabitants of the land in order to steal the territory for themselves?

K.

and that is the only basis for anyone claiming right to anywhere, throughout history.

which indicates the right of Israel to exist, due to the successful "fight for a homeland"/"terrorism" of its founding - but only insofar as it is able to defend its claim against others who would take the land from them.

if this were not so - if some higher philosophical principle - or some supposed divine right - should be applied, then I ought to be thrown out of house and home and sent back to Denmark whence my lot sprang 1500 years ago, along with a substantial part of the population of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa et al. I am here and they are there purely because we took the land by force and slaughtered anyone who resisted.

but by that standard, it is as wholly wrong to interfere in the situation when the former inhabitants and their allies strive to take the land back from the Jewish conquerors, as it is to interfere when the Jewish conquerors crush such opposition. The Jewish spokesperson is alluding to exactly this position in his comment in the OP - incidentally discounting any divine claim and exposing himself to the accusation he makes against the US.

still, we have evolved somewhat in the west from the point of view held by our distant ancestors when it came to forming our nations; instead we appeal to philosophical principles falling into the category of "right maketh might"- yet it would seem the Israeli state either does not - relying instead on a claim based on strength of arms "might maketh right", or that it appeals to very different principles of a kind which if expressed in any other context would be roundly condemned by the west.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 5:27:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

and that is the only basis for anyone claiming right to anywhere, throughout history.

I understand your point. But there is a not subtle difference between conquering a territory and conducting a border to border extermination campaign aimed at slaughtering every last man, woman, and child inhabiting it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/8/2009 5:32:24 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 5:42:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Our God is the Christian and Muslim God? He is the God of Akhenaton? You mean the first and only Pharaoh to bring up a monotheistic God ever? The same who proposed his idea during the...Jewish enslavement? Please.

Exactly the one, indeed. Somebody else already pointed out that Allah simply means "God". So does Jehova, Yahweh, Elohim. Adonai means "My Lord".

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
I would never say that the Jews built the pyramids. The facts just don't support that.

Nor did I say that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
The Salem witch trials happened whether or not you want to admit it by your country's founders. The Puritans are the same people who took up arms and fought the British. It's called history, and perhaps a course or two at university level would help you.

Um.... You may want to reread your history here. You might as well say that the USA was really founded by the Spanish because the first settlement on today's US soil was St. Augustine, FL. Predates the Salem Witch trials by another 130 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
I'm not asking anyone to believe in Judaism. There are plenty of valid and worthy deities around. What I do ask is that you respect our history.

That attitude is very much appreciated - and one of the reasons I respect the Jewish religion more than many others. Yes, I know you don't believe me on that... But I truly have no beef with either Judaism or the people of Israel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Try to know it before you condemn us. We don't believe that we have a right to the entire world, nor do we believe that all of you will ever go to hell. We just want our small piece of what we believe we claimed thousands of years ago. Yes, we will claim a large portion of the Sinai Peninsula because it just isn't an exact science. We've never claimed into Europe. We've never wantd into Asia, and we've certainly never claimed back into Africa.

You know, when it comes to killing, bloodshed, driving people off their ancestral lands, it's no longer about "trying to know you." It's about the here and now, and about resolving a conflict.

You used the appropriate term: you BELIEVE that you claimed that land thousands of years ago. OK. I can't argue with that. Just based on that BELIEF (which you seem to be tolerant to admit nobody else even needs to share), you don't have the right to just waltz right in there and take it from those who have actually had that land for the last 1000 years. On that, centuries of history plain trump religious belief.

My grandfather was born in Kaliningrad. Even if I can document exactly where, that doesn't give me the right to waltz right into Kaliningrad town hall and tell the mayor: "I demand that you give me that house back." And the descendants of Emperor Wilhelm of Germany can't just demand that the Empire be reinstated, either. Nor can the British demand their colonies back. Nor can the Mexicans demand California back.

Being driven out of Israel 2000 years ago was an atrocity - but you can't undo it by driving out the Palestinians now. Two wrongs don't make a right even contemporanously. Much less 20 centuries apart.

I can understand and accept the desire to have a place of your own. And it was settled in the 1940s that this place will be Israel - not a very wise decision, but that, too is history now. But what isn't history is West Bank and Gaza. Hate to be so blunt, but saying "we claimed it thousands of years ago" is just as bad as "kill all infidels". Or "kill all abortion doctors".

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
What do you want from us?

From "US?" Who is "US?" This is a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, with the USA and the rest of the Arab world as background players.

What I want from US (as in, us Americans) is recognizing the rights of Palestinians as much as the rights of Israelis, and take a role as a balanced mediator.

What I want from Israel is to stop breaking treaties, promises and international law. Most specifically, complete withdrawal from the West Bank, including turning over all settlements to the Palestinians, move the Wall onto Israeli territory, allow free movement of innocent Palestinians, allow the Gaza strip to thrive (given that it is so small, that's going to be difficult).

What I want from the Palestinians is to stop attacking Israel, except in response to Israeli aggressions. If Israel claims the right to retaliate, then the Palestinians have the same right.

What I want from Judaism? Just to stay out of Israeli politics. Same as Christians need to stay out of US politics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
A place to set our temple without shame.

How can you talk about "temple without shame" when it is built on the blood and suffering of the Palestinians?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Has Israel ever sought an international incident to stake its claim? Ever? Have we hijacked? Have we threatened another nation not in our direct descent?

Lebanon. The settlements in the West Bank. The 1981 bombing of the Osiraq plant. The 2007 bombing raid on Syria. The blockade of Gaza. Violation of the non-proliferation treaty. Just to name a few.

Hate to say it, but just because Israel uses high-tech aircraft to deliver the bombs doesn't mean they are morally better than low-tech Palestinian suicide bombers. And don't think that Palestinians are any less terrified than Israelis than your "horror of being a Jew." It's the horror of being a victim of war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
We ask for little, and yet it is too much at times.

True, you ask for so little. Just for a little bit of genocide. Nothing major. It's just Palestinians, after all.

Somehow you, Mr. "we have always believed in redemption and forgiveness" seem to forget that Israel wasn't just an empty piece of desert.

I respect your religious beliefs. I really do. And there are many things I highly respect Israel, the country, for.

But I draw the line when your beliefs cause wars, bloodshed and horror. "Everybody's rights end where his neighbor's rights begin." Even religious freedom.

(in reply to aphotic)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 5:44:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

and that is the only basis for anyone claiming right to anywhere, throughout history.

I understand your point. But there is a not subtle difference between conquering a territory and conducting a border to border extermination campaign aimed at slaughtering every last man, woman, and child inhabiting it.

K.

Indeed - but the Israelis have not exterminated any populations within its borders? certainly - as illustrated in my recent thread regarding the racism of Israel alleged by Iran - it has always favoured its Jewish inhabitants over its Arab citizens to the notable detriment of the latter, but it has not undertaken extermination.

If we are to go into older history then extermination (or enslavement) was the order of the day of course, but on that basis no one has clean hands.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 5:55:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Indeed - but the Israelis have not exterminated any populations within its borders?

I think you've lost the sequence. The reference was to the circumstances of the original claim. It was with respect to that that I offered the observation that genocidal murder is not, "the only basis for anyone claiming right to anywhere, throughout history."

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/8/2009 6:15:08 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 7:43:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BadJezebel

To get back to the purpose of this thread, the US relationship with Israel benefits the US in several ways:

The Israelis provide us with MUCH NEEDED assistance in intelligence (remember how ineffictive the CIA was when Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait? They said that they didn't know it was coming but it was all over the press and radio in the Arab world).

That is a very good point, but if we no longer have any interest in the Middle East, then this intelligence would not be that valuable. It seems to be a self perpetuating thing, doesn't it?

quote:

They jointly develop weapons, pharmacueticals and information technology platforms with Americans.

I did not know this, could you give an example?

quote:

Israelis were important during the cold war and have kept Russia's power contained/down in that region. We may think that isn't important anymore because the cold war is over. That isn't true. Russians are selling wepons all over the Middle East. This winter, during the trouble with Gaza, when the Israelis finally went in, they found many Russians. Some were married to Arabs who formerly studied in Russian Universities the others were there on . . .. um. . . . well you know. . . Russki business ;)

Here's a RUssian aritcle that glosses over that one
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081229/119221140.html

If the US scales back it's vested interest in foreign relations, then why is this important? If relations were improved with Russia, why would this be important?

quote:

For more info overall on the US relationship with Israel from the perspective of a a member of the House Appropriations Committee’s subcommittees on Defense; State, Foreign Operations; and Agriculture. Who also sits on the House Science and Technology Committee:

http://thehill.com/op-eds/u.s.s-valuable-strategic-relationship-with-israel-2008-06-03.html

I will read this article and comment on it later.

I would like to see the US pull out of all foreign involvement, but that is just not realistic short term. I would like to see a slow scale back of foreign intervention and aid though. I believe the affairs of the Middle East, should be taken care of by those of that region. If it spills over into other areas, then those in the areas concerned should get involved. This is not what will happen, so I will deal with what is.

The region in question has been unstable off and on for many centuries, if not thousands of years. Our war in Iraq has further destabilized the region, but removing a power that was a check and balance to a few other powers in the area. It is my opinion that Iran, Syria and a few others will begin to consolidate power, while splitting out various things to do and research. There is a good article on Iran becoming a Hegemony in the Middle East, that predicts their power becoming greater than any other in the area. There are some that say the only thing that may prevent this, is a political revolution within Iran or other supporting countries. A war will galvanize the moderates and the extremist together, and create greater opposition, which if Iran and their allies were to lose, may be a set back short term, but it would create even more seeds that will grow into conflict for many more years to come.

So what is the solution? Is this to be viewed as warfare, or diplomacy, against the enemies of Israel?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to BadJezebel)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 10:05:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Thank God we know now.
Everyone can stop blaming Bush for everything.

I'm not a Jew,Christian,Moslem Or Nazi (thought that might help, given the content of your posts). God is a curious concept to me, but certainly not something I could be thanking.
Whilst everyone "can" stop blaming the retard Bush (take your pick), not all of us are stupid enough to forget it's contribution to the "civilised" world.

Pirate

(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 10:14:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

There's a huge difference between not supporting Israeli atrocities (I think we all agree on the Palestinian atrocities, so we don't need to mention them), and disbanding Israel.

I could agree entirely except the bit "we all agree", since there's no chance of that here.
(how long before some retard with no sense of humour choses to interpret that as me denying someone or something?)

Pirate

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 10:31:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: BadJezebel

They jointly develop weapons, pharmacueticals and information technology platforms with Americans.

I did not know this, could you give an example?

Wepons:
Arrow
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arrow2/

2.2.1 Scope of Requirements

TASK 06 - Israeli Cooperative R & D Project

The Israeli Cooperative R & D Project will advance emerging TMD technologies for
technology demonstration phase to provide for the defense of the State of Israel, support U.S.
technology base needs for these technologies, and pursue interoperability with U.S. TMD
systems. Candidate technologies today are the continuation of the electro-thermal gun
experiments and advancement of the Israeli BPI concept. Efforts in this area will begin in
FY1997. This timing provides for maturation of U.S. requirements for these areas of TMD
technologies.

others including technology:

TASK 09 - Israeli System Architecture & Integration (ISA&I)

The ISA&I tasks provide on-going analysis and assessment of the baseline,
evolutionary, and responsive threats, and for the definition and evaluation of an initial Israeli
Reference Missile Architecture (IRMA). The specific activities/tasks of this effort include:
Threat Assessment, TMD System Architecture Analysis, Evaluation of Critical Technical
Issues, TMD System Evolutionary Growth Paths, Conformance Assurances and Special
Studies, and Simulation Activities and Studies. Collectively, the tasks conducted under this
cooperatively sponsored Israeli System Architecture & Integration Program will provide critical
insights and technical data to both the U.S. and Israeli governments for improving near-term
and evolutionary defenses against ballistic missile threats.

TASK 10 - Israeli Boost Phase Intercept Study

The Study defines what the U.S. gets out of a U.S./Israeli joint/BPI development
program and analyzes common technology requirements between U.S. Air Force and Israeli
BPI concepts. It will explore selected improvements for Israeli BPI missile, aircraft, and BM/C3
and a report will be prepared.

(the above is from a Pentagon document)

Finally, Pharmaceuticals:
Israeli biotechs have helped us immeasurably! The Swine flu vaccine is developed in Israel. US and Israeli pharma companies have been working on an alzheimers vaccine. J&J and Bayer have worked with Israel on several projects.

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enZone=health&enDisplay=view&enPage=BlankPage&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Articles%5El115

For an extensive list on partnerships:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usistc.html

MOre types of joint developments:
(Including energy)
US- Israel Science and Technology Foundations
http://www.usistf.org/index.html

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 10:39:54 AM

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Thanks for that! I did not know those things. Nothing personal but I am also going to research them myself.

So if the US cut back aid to Israel, how would that stop any of what you have listed. A country can keep good relations, and mutual cooperation without a unilateral backing of everything they do.

Looking at the Palestinian issue, I see both sides as being in the wrong, and the right. If Israel were to settle that issue somehow, wouldn't they remove a political and possibly military weapon from their enemies? It seems the continued conflict only benefits the detractors of Israel, and The US indirectly and directly.

"When won has turned an enemy into an ally, a true victory has occured" Old Chinese saying paraphrased because I have a poor memory for exact quotes.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to BadJezebel)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 11:06:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: BadJezebel

To get back to the purpose of this thread, the US relationship with Israel benefits the US in several ways:

The Israelis provide us with MUCH NEEDED assistance in intelligence (remember how ineffictive the CIA was when Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait? They said that they didn't know it was coming but it was all over the press and radio in the Arab world).

That is a very good point, but if we no longer have any interest in the Middle East, then this intelligence would not be that valuable. It seems to be a self perpetuating thing, doesn't it?

The US not having interest in the Middle East? ROTFLMAO

Not possible as long as there is still oil and we want ANY of it. (That's got to be at least another 50 years and that would take care of your lifetime.)

Don't be naive. We need to maintain some semblence of power-balance in every corner of the world.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 11:22:36 AM

Posts: 138
Joined: 4/29/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Thanks for that! I did not know those things. Nothing personal but I am also going to research them myself.

Good! You should research it yourself!!! I wish more Americans understood the reality of WHY Israel is an ally. Not just the fuzzy wuzzy sentiments that appeal to the religious.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So if the US cut back aid to Israel, how would that stop any of what you have listed. A country can keep good relations, and mutual cooperation without a unilateral backing of everything they do.

Agreed. It might be good for Israel to have a little less backing and a little more autonomy. (No one needs to agree with this.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Looking at the Palestinian issue, I see both sides as being in the wrong, and the right. If Israel were to settle that issue somehow, wouldn't they remove a political and possibly military weapon from their enemies? It seems the continued conflict only benefits the detractors of Israel, and The US indirectly and directly.

In war there is no 100% right side.
Continued conflict benefits Arabs MUCH more than Israelis. --- How? Read the article on Lebanon in the link provided above. Other examples? Pan-Arab or Pan-Islamic nationalism is united under this flag. Arab countries focus on the "Israel problem" and the plight of Palestinians in their media and politcal rhetoric rather than on thier real internal issues. When they do this they garner more outside support.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 12:02:59 PM

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Joined: 12/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

They must have gotten their check for this year's foreign aid already.
Wait till next year right before "check time"; "Gee Secretary Clinton, you sure do look nice for a *50* year old woman!"
"What, 62?! "Get out of here!"

Cmon Popeye, you know Congress will never cut Israel off, Israel owns too many Congress Critters.

I cannot get into an argument lately without someone jumping to my "most unfavorite" topic; religion. I told a truck driver about Israel's response. He said that we cannot abandon Israel. I asked why. He answered that our backing of Israel is the reason the US will survive and then quoted the bible chapter and verse. He was adamant that as long as we back Israel god will protect the US and that god has so promised. A good ole southern boy from Arkansas who I cannot argue with since he resorts to the bible.

so by your argument it is wrong to southern, a christian and to follow the word of god? o btw im southern, born in arkansas, a christian, southern baptist, and i believe in the bible.

(in reply to Lorr47)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 12:10:27 PM

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Instead of naive, maybe it is the fact that this semblance of power in ever corner of the world, has caused many of the problems we now face. I am not for complete isilationism, but I am for a large withdrawl from foreign affairs that have proven detrimental or one sided.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BadJezebel

Don't be naive. We need to maintain some semblence of power-balance in every corner of the world.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to BadJezebel)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 12:15:41 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BadJezebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: BadJezebel

To get back to the purpose of this thread, the US relationship with Israel benefits the US in several ways:

The Israelis provide us with MUCH NEEDED assistance in intelligence (remember how ineffictive the CIA was when Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait? They said that they didn't know it was coming but it was all over the press and radio in the Arab world).

That is a very good point, but if we no longer have any interest in the Middle East, then this intelligence would not be that valuable. It seems to be a self perpetuating thing, doesn't it?

The US not having interest in the Middle East? ROTFLMAO

Not possible as long as there is still oil and we want ANY of it. (That's got to be at least another 50 years and that would take care of your lifetime.)

If anything, it seems to me that our ties to Israel hinder rather than help our efforts on the oil front. After all, Israel doesn't have any. Iran and Saudi Arabia do.

(in reply to BadJezebel)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/8/2009 1:09:17 PM

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I'm aware that i'm arriving a little late in the debate but nevertheless... Israel has every right to exist and ,if it chooses, to expand its territories. Palastine has every right to exist and, if it chooses, to make war on Israel to reclaim it's lost land. Obama has every right to attempt to dictate policy to Israel. Right and wrong are subjective terms there is no monolithic construction that embodies all aspects of these concepts and so each nation has it's own values and implements them as it sees fit. I do not know what is right or wrong I have a moral code which I adhere to but it's inherent value is no more than that of anyone else's...I just believe it is. One cannot say that Israel does not have the right to lands that used to be Palastinian, clearly it does because Isael believes it does. Likewise Palastine is quite at liberty to attempt to reclaim them the fact that Israel does not believe it has the right to do so does not nullify the Palstinian claim. Our moral pontificating does nothing to help any of the people caught up in this bitter conflict. At best it is an irrelevance that soothes the conscience of some, at worst it is poor poultice that allows a wound to fester rather than heal. Belief without action is useless, at the moment the West prolongs the agony of both sides. We should either come down hard on one side or another and help them to victory or wash our hands of the affair entirely and allow them to resolve their conflict alone. I understand why Obama has done what he has but his beliefs are irrelevant as he has not backed them up with action and his moral position is no better than that of the Israeli's.

(in reply to cadenas)

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