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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:16:19 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

I just spent 15 minutes looking for news on this supposed passage of a single payer health care plan, because you'd never flat out make something up or mislabel something, and imagine my chagrin when I find that what the Senate is approving isn't even remotely socialized medicine.

I caught the news blurb just abit ago on the television... as soon as a print or web article is available I will post a link... or retract it.

You should know be better than that. I do my damndest to stay to the facts... And the passive agressive attack is definitely underneath you.

I know you are exagerating on this issue. No bill anywhere in Congress with any chance at all of passing is a single payer plan or a full socialization of the health care industry.

I also know that Harry Reid's office says no roll calls are scheduled for today until late afternoon and that the full senate won't even convene until 2PM.
http://democrats.senate.gov/calendar/2009-06.html

First off, do you think it will end with just a public funded for some and some mandates on businesses? For somebody that I believe to be pretty sharp, that seems a bit naive.

The current draft calls for a government run program that will compete with the private sector (which will force the smaller insurance companies under), and a mandate for most employers to provide healthcare or pay a penalty (depending on what the requirements are, this will put even bigger burdens on small businesses). The costs will put even more pressure on the states that are having a hard enough time paying for mandates and everyday costs, some aren't even able to make those payments. Etc, etc, etc...

Now back to the topic at hand... it has been stated many times on the left here(general usage of here, meaning in this country) that they wish to make our country more like our European friends. The move to the left is coming... and it is not going to be in small steps; the funny part is that some of those countries are moving (slowly) to the right.

What I hope is the eventual outcome is irrelevant. what is relevant is your false claim that you said you'd retract if it was untrue. Which you failed to do with this non sequitur post.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:21:42 AM

Sanity

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So you think the bitch had it comin' - if she wasn't such a bitch then he wouldn't have no damn reason to lie to her.

?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Personally I believe such a scenario would say far more about the electorate than about the man.

E

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Post #: 42

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:24:59 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I was merely suggesting that the policies, control, and services are moving in that direction. Government ownership and running of banks, car makers, insurance companies, and possibly health care... it is definitely a foundation to build upon if one wanted to convert this country to a socialist one.

Indeed, but all this government ownership (here and there) has only occurred because the system has failed and it has become necessary to take said businesses on in order to prevent the rest of economy failing too in a domino effect. This of course goes against the principles of that (failed) system that those businesses relied on, but to allow such an effect on the basis of principles shown to be faulty would be simply daft; over here (maybe over there too) - "cutting off your nose to spite your face" is not something to be admired.

And that really is the lesson to be drawn from the Euro elections - those principles which PM Brown has so proudly boasted these last twelve years have been shown to be faulty. They must be replaced with something more considered that has a lower chance of dramatic failure, and the replacement need not be determined by nor informed by the old principles.

And secondarily, the majority of the European electorate agrees with that - but notably does not agree with the notion of greater socialism but supports a refreshed free market which is governed by rules to prevent the same problems again, and notably (in the UK) disagrees with PM Brown perhaps in trying to prop up and revive the failed model.

As for universal health care; this is vital in itself, but it is also a natural consequence of the refreshment of the model. Personal responsibility, success and liability yes - but all within limits that recognise our mutual interdependence and respective nationhoods.
E

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:28:31 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Actually, you are making unfounded claims, if you are claiming Obama is to the right of Europe:

European Socialism seems to outline many of the plans that Obama has for the US.

of course, that is discounting the impact that Islamic fundamentalists may have on these countries.

ed to add: Try to actually have some valid research instead of your gut-level opinion when you discuss issues.

If you call this link valid research, you have some problems.

While Obama isnt exactly right wing, he is not, what Europeans call left wing.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 6/8/2009 8:31:47 AM >

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:29:18 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So you think the bitch had it comin' - if she wasn't such a bitch then he wouldn't have no damn reason to lie to her.

?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Personally I believe such a scenario would say far more about the electorate than about the man.

E

Curiouser and curiouser....

E

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:35:50 AM

Politesub53

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Mars, my remark about gitmo was in reply to the comment on free speech. Its absurd to think right wing countries or left wing countries hold a monopoly on speech, as was suggested.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:50:11 AM

Sanity

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The point is (and I'm amazed that you missed it), honesty is always best. Relationships where one party has to lie in order to get their foot in the door rarely work out well. Further, liars and cheats never stop at just one lie. If they'll lie to you about one thing you can't trust anything they tell you.

Lying is dysfunctional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So you think the bitch had it comin' - if she wasn't such a bitch then he wouldn't have no damn reason to lie to her.

?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Personally I believe such a scenario would say far more about the electorate than about the man.

E

Curiouser and curiouser....

E

< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/8/2009 8:52:25 AM >

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:52:15 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

I just spent 15 minutes looking for news on this supposed passage of a single payer health care plan, because you'd never flat out make something up or mislabel something, and imagine my chagrin when I find that what the Senate is approving isn't even remotely socialized medicine.

I caught the news blurb just abit ago on the television... as soon as a print or web article is available I will post a link... or retract it.

You should know be better than that. I do my damndest to stay to the facts... And the passive agressive attack is definitely underneath you.

I know you are exagerating on this issue. No bill anywhere in Congress with any chance at all of passing is a single payer plan or a full socialization of the health care industry.

I also know that Harry Reid's office says no roll calls are scheduled for today until late afternoon and that the full senate won't even convene until 2PM.
http://democrats.senate.gov/calendar/2009-06.html

First off, do you think it will end with just a public funded for some and some mandates on businesses? For somebody that I believe to be pretty sharp, that seems a bit naive.

The current draft calls for a government run program that will compete with the private sector (which will force the smaller insurance companies under), and a mandate for most employers to provide healthcare or pay a penalty (depending on what the requirements are, this will put even bigger burdens on small businesses). The costs will put even more pressure on the states that are having a hard enough time paying for mandates and everyday costs, some aren't even able to make those payments. Etc, etc, etc...

Now back to the topic at hand... it has been stated many times on the left here(general usage of here, meaning in this country) that they wish to make our country more like our European friends. The move to the left is coming... and it is not going to be in small steps; the funny part is that some of those countries are moving (slowly) to the right.

What I hope is the eventual outcome is irrelevant. what is relevant is your false claim that you said you'd retract if it was untrue. Which you failed to do with this non sequitur post.

I suppose you missed the heavily bolded remarks I made a page back... Stating quite clearly that I MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT THE REPORTER HAD SAID, AND THAT THERE WAS JUST A DRAFT OF THE HEALTH CARE REFORM BILL MAKING ITS ROUNDS.

Yet, your focus is not on the information... but attempting to cast a shadow on my name.... Tis a shame.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 8:54:07 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The point is (and I'm amazed that you missed it), honesty is always best. Relationships where one party has to lie in order to get their foot in the door rarely work out well. Further, liars and cheats never stop at just one lie. If they'll lie to you about one thing you can't trust anything they tell you.

The principle is agreed. However it is a dangerous principle to agree in that as a principle it must be applied universally.

E

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 10:04:46 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I suppose you missed the heavily bolded remarks I made a page back... Stating quite clearly that I MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT THE REPORTER HAD SAID, AND THAT THERE WAS JUST A DRAFT OF THE HEALTH CARE REFORM BILL MAKING ITS ROUNDS.

Yet, your focus is not on the information... but attempting to cast a shadow on my name.... Tis a shame.

So now I'm responsible for going back to old posts to know you retracted a claim? Please.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 10:31:47 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Are you proud to be an American? I mean accepting all the mistakes, we as a nation, have made, along with noting the accomplishments and good we have done? It is all part of the process.

I disagree with the things you have listed below as well, but you spin things so negatively against the US, laying all blame at the feet of someone else, and not accepting your portion of the burden as well. Anything our country does, is because we the people allowed it. That is taking responsibility.

Hard working
Industrious
Community orientated
Individual liberties
A Functional Republic
The Bill of Rights

While here and there these things have been diminished, and/or abandoned by our government, these are still some of the American values that we all should strive for, and be proud of.

Seems the same posters, right or left, have plenty of fuel here to continue the "neener, neener, neener" arguments that often distract from more important issues.

Well I guess this is entertainment for many, just like the Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, and other shows are.

My serious comments are: I do not see an abandoning of anything in the European political arena. I see the populace there, getting sick of their politicians and moving for change. I would like to see a turn over like this here in the US and abroad, every few years. I just want to stop seeing the change going from one extreme to the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Politesub,

Yes, great American values like GITMO.
Or PATRIOT II
Or warrantless wiretapping
Or ("Advanced Interrogation Techniques") aka torture.
Or putting protesters into "Free Speech Zones"
Or creating a new term for organized character assasination: "Swift Boating"
Or "Extraordinary Rendition"

It all comes down to the same fucking thing, over and over, and over... Some pigs (namely the GOP) are more equal than others. Or at least they were.

I look forward to the day when the Dems realize that the republicans have shrunken and disappeared up their own ulcerated assholes. All we hear from them these days is fart gas expelled by their radio hosts. Once they do that, we can echew this "bipartisan" bullshit and get the real work of getting this country back on track started.

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 6/8/2009 10:32:04 AM >

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 12:27:26 PM

Cagey18

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Since Obama kept his Muslim roots hidden for so long, since he lied to us about that

Uh, no...his Indonesian past has hardly been "hidden"....did you have access to the Internet last year? Or a newspaper?

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 12:33:11 PM

Crush

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Actually, you are making unfounded claims, if you are claiming Obama is to the right of Europe:

European Socialism seems to outline many of the plans that Obama has for the US.

of course, that is discounting the impact that Islamic fundamentalists may have on these countries.

ed to add: Try to actually have some valid research instead of your gut-level opinion when you discuss issues.

If you call this link valid research, you have some problems.

While Obama isnt exactly right wing, he is not, what Europeans call left wing.

And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

< Message edited by Crush -- 6/8/2009 12:41:49 PM >

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 12:46:48 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is funny. The right wingers think center right parties doing well in the EU parliament election means something bad for Obama and Democrats. Let me break this to you gently, take a deep breath and sit down, Obama and the Democratic party would be right of center in Europe. The GOP would be a far right party in Europe. Greens and socialists are the left parties in Europe.

Perhaps in continental Europe.

The Conservative Party - which incidentally is always elected at every general election in England - is further to the right than mainstream parties in continental Europe. Economically speaking the Conservative Party is irretrievably bound up with the free market (which I suppose is more of a liberal philosophy than a conservative one) and certainly more 'tough on law and order' than continental European types. I'd guess they're further to the right than the democrats on both economic and social matters. The British Conservative Party is more like the republicans - same policies on the death penalty immigration etc - the one difference being that our conservative party is economically free market at its core.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 12:50:56 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

The national journal rankings are an annual hit piece.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/01/31/obama_record/index.html

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 12:51:12 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Actually, you are making unfounded claims, if you are claiming Obama is to the right of Europe:

European Socialism seems to outline many of the plans that Obama has for the US.

of course, that is discounting the impact that Islamic fundamentalists may have on these countries.

ed to add: Try to actually have some valid research instead of your gut-level opinion when you discuss issues.

If you call this link valid research, you have some problems.

While Obama isnt exactly right wing, he is not, what Europeans call left wing.

And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

Here's some research: the British Conservative Party are elected at pretty much every general electiob by the English - the Scottish and Welsh ensure that the English are not governed by the Conservative Party from year dot to eternity as they never vote conservative.

And the British Conservative Party is further to the right than Obama.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 1:07:18 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is funny. The right wingers think center right parties doing well in the EU parliament election means something bad for Obama and Democrats. Let me break this to you gently, take a deep breath and sit down, Obama and the Democratic party would be right of center in Europe. The GOP would be a far right party in Europe. Greens and socialists are the left parties in Europe.

Perhaps in continental Europe.

The Conservative Party - which incidentally is always elected at every general election in England - is further to the right than mainstream parties in continental Europe. Economically speaking the Conservative Party is irretrievably bound up with the free market (which I suppose is more of a liberal philosophy than a conservative one) and certainly more 'tough on law and order' than continental European types. I'd guess they're further to the right than the democrats on both economic and social matters. The British Conservative Party is more like the republicans - same policies on the death penalty immigration etc - the one difference being that our conservative party is economically free market at its core.

No, even in England the US Deomcratic party would be right of center. That the Thatcherites are still running to the right doesn't change anything.

Obama's policies do not differ markedly from the New Labour's platform which is a decidedly right of center position. The Greens and the actual true blue socialists hold the left in england just as they do in, the rest of, Europe.

And after a quick look at the Tories official platform they differ quite a lot from the GOP on death penalty and immigration. For instance I can't find anything about bringing back teh death penalty in the UK nor for its widesopread implementation for a myriad of offences as is the case with the GOP. The Tory immigration policy seems almost sensible while the GOP continues to thrash about trying to compromise between the racists and the corporatists who want a guest worker program even more draconian than Germany's.

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 1:12:35 PM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush
And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

If you're going to talk about Obama in relation to the European left, you actually need some sources that look at that specifically, surely?

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 1:53:02 PM

lronitulstahp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Since Obama kept his Muslim roots hidden for so long, since he lied to us about that

Uh, no...his Indonesian past has hardly been "hidden"....did you have access to the Internet last year? Or a newspaper?

OMG!!!! Just realized according to some people's reasoning...i could be considered male.
i mean if :
Obama's father was a Muslim = Obama is a Muslim, or magically has Muslim "roots" from a man he met once.
then:
my father is a Male = *checks myself below...scratches head...walks away* Math never was my strong point...

It still bothers me that "Muslim" means bad...but then again, i'm a little overly sensitive about lumping together an entire group of people based on the actions on a few. G-d knows i don't want to have to answer for the sins of some of my "fellow Americans".

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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 2:08:51 PM

Crush

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

The national journal rankings are an annual hit piece.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/01/31/obama_record/index.html

And I'm to believe that Salon.com is impartial? About as impartial as NPR...

But at least you are providing some legitimate counter arguments...thanks, Ken

< Message edited by Crush -- 6/8/2009 2:17:40 PM >

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