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RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 2:11:00 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Actually, you are making unfounded claims, if you are claiming Obama is to the right of Europe:

European Socialism seems to outline many of the plans that Obama has for the US.

of course, that is discounting the impact that Islamic fundamentalists may have on these countries.

ed to add: Try to actually have some valid research instead of your gut-level opinion when you discuss issues.

If you call this link valid research, you have some problems.

While Obama isnt exactly right wing, he is not, what Europeans call left wing.

And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

Here's some research: the British Conservative Party are elected at pretty much every general electiob by the English - the Scottish and Welsh ensure that the English are not governed by the Conservative Party from year dot to eternity as they never vote conservative.

And the British Conservative Party is further to the right than Obama.

And I live here for fuck's sake too....your research other than biased personal experience?

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 2:11:52 PM

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Please keep things in their proper context, Ironit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Point is, Obama worked to keep that hidden. I'm not making any judgments about what he kept hidden, just that he hides things about himself. He claims to really admire Abraham Lincoln, but he isn't honest like Abe. You claim that Obama is center right, but you have no way of knowing because it's evident that he lies. Misrepresents himself, whatever you want to call it.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 2:15:27 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush
And your counter research? Ah, thought not......And no counter to the statements in the article.

See also: http://www.poligazette.com/2008/01/31/moderate-obama-most-liberal-senator/

If you're going to talk about Obama in relation to the European left, you actually need some sources that look at that specifically, surely?

And of course, if anyone provides something to read about liberal European countries vs Obama's intended and stated policies, I'll gladly read it and perhaps change my mind.

ex:
http://www.lonelyconservative.com/2008/10/14/what-does-obamas-european-socialism-model-look-like/
vs
http://www.slate.com/id/2213040/

s’il vous plaît

It can't be that hard to actually support something you believe to be true, can it? Or are we talking about matters of "faith" here?

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to Apocalypso)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 2:22:48 PM

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

Here's some research: the British Conservative Party are elected at pretty much every general electiob by the English - the Scottish and Welsh ensure that the English are not governed by the Conservative Party from year dot to eternity as they never vote conservative.

And the British Conservative Party is further to the right than Obama.

And I live here for fuck's sake too....your research other than biased personal experience?

Your profile says you live in Florida.

Did you move?

(in reply to Crush)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 2:27:51 PM

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

Here's some research: the British Conservative Party are elected at pretty much every general electiob by the English - the Scottish and Welsh ensure that the English are not governed by the Conservative Party from year dot to eternity as they never vote conservative.

And the British Conservative Party is further to the right than Obama.

And I live here for fuck's sake too....your research other than biased personal experience?

Your profile says you live in Florida.

Did you move?

Is this that new geography... sort of like the new math?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 3:55:54 PM

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

And I live here for fuck's sake too....your research other than biased personal experience?

NG was pointing out he and I both live in the UK. So our research is living daily with European politics, not some crank web site.

The top line of your original link mentions Lee Kaplan of front page mag. Do you really think this shit is UNBIASED research ?

(in reply to Crush)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 4:34:16 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

Here's some research: the British Conservative Party are elected at pretty much every general electiob by the English - the Scottish and Welsh ensure that the English are not governed by the Conservative Party from year dot to eternity as they never vote conservative.

And the British Conservative Party is further to the right than Obama.

And I live here for fuck's sake too....your research other than biased personal experience?

Your profile says you live in Florida.

Did you move?

Nice diversion, Alinsky would be proud. Which of the Rule for Radicals are you attempting to use? I'm guessing #3, #4, #5. Unfortunately, #7 seems to apply the most ....

Or perhaps you misunderstood or I wasn't clear enough...text has a way of missing the finer points.

How about:

I live HERE too, in the US. For those that don't get the point:

I live where Pres. Obama is our leader and I see what he is doing in terms of taking us left. I have read about Europe, the "left" of Europe and the social programs in different countries.

I see where Obama is heading* towards the "left" with his proposals in the US. By analogy, the EU is starting to reject the path that Obama wants to take us down...one that has been travelled already by the EU and has found to be a dead end. But Obama wants to go down that path because he doesn't see it as the dead end he is being told it is by the EU.

Socialized medicine. Wage czars. Governmentally-owned industries. Mandated service. (See http://www.barackobama.com/ , http://www.whitehouse.gov ) The whole "cradle to grave" thing.

But hey, a lot of people on this board are all for those things, bless their hearts. But I'm among them. Certainly we need to get some things changed, but I'm not sold on the extent to which Pres Obama wants to change things.

And still, no data to show otherwise, as I requested, rule.

-------
* perhaps that's where NorthernGent and I are miscommunicating....I believe that where Obama & Co is trying to take the US is towards the path that the E.U. is starting to reject after years of being in that culture. Therefore, I see that Obama is going to be much more "left" than the EU.
If so, Apologies, NorthernGent.

< Message edited by Crush -- 6/8/2009 4:35:26 PM >

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 4:46:40 PM

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Please keep things in their proper context, Ironit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Point is, Obama worked to keep that hidden. I'm not making any judgments about what he kept hidden, just that he hides things about himself. He claims to really admire Abraham Lincoln, but he isn't honest like Abe. You claim that Obama is center right, but you have no way of knowing because it's evident that he lies. Misrepresents himself, whatever you want to call it.

You said:

quote:

Since Obama kept his Muslim roots hidden for so long, since he lied to us about that and has only just now began talking about it, how do you know he hasn't hidden a lot more about himself for convenience. I'll bet he knows he would be unelectable in this country were he to be more candid about many of his various positions.

i said:

quote:

OMG!!!! Just realized according to some people's reasoning...i could be considered male.
i mean if :
Obama's father was a Muslim = Obama is a Muslim, or magically has Muslim "roots" from a man he met once.
then:
my father is a Male = *checks myself below...scratches head...walks away* Math never was my strong point...

What'd i miss?????

btw Golly geeze, Sanity...i was only funnin ya...
~the beave

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 4:51:44 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

I think some sort of operation. Are you in Sweden, Iron?

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 4:59:24 PM

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Joined: 10/17/2007
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Actually, i'm a stone's throw away from you...don't tempt me to prove it!!!

~Charlie crist says, "hi"

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to Crush)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 5:21:45 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush
I see where Obama is heading* towards the "left" with his proposals in the US. By analogy, the EU is starting to reject the path that Obama wants to take us down...one that has been travelled already by the EU and has found to be a dead end. But Obama wants to go down that path because he doesn't see it as the dead end he is being told it is by the EU.

Just because he is heading in the same direction doesn't mean he's heading for the same destination. There's a whole, who-o-o-ole lotta left to the left of where we are now, and we could fill up quite a bit of it before we even get to the far right border of where the EU is - and I see no reason to believe this country is even capable of going that far left. It's still way, wa-a-ay too conservative a country, and where do you think all those conservatives are going to go while Obama supposedly drags the country to hell in a handbasket? No matter how far left he and the Dems try to go, the conservative voters in this country will act as an anchor holding them back, and the end result will always be something considerably short of where we might have wound up if we hadn't been starting from such a conservative status quo. I think you're trying to frame this in terms of absolutes that just don't necessarily apply.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 6/8/2009 5:31:25 PM >

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(in reply to Crush)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 6:18:05 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

Well,
It seems that the European Socialists might become Democrats, so even closer:

----------
European Socialists Consider Changing Their Name to "Democrats".... Will bring them in-line with their American counterparts.....
   European socialists were left in disarray on Sunday night after failing to capitalise on a historic economic and financial crisis to harvest disaffected voters in parliamentary elections.

   In spite of such seemingly favourable conditions, the socialists fell further behind the parliament’s largest group, the centre-right European People’s party, as voters punished them in key countries, including the UK, while flocking to parties on the far-left and far-right elsewhere.

   Some socialists have even spoken of possibly changing their name to “Democrats”. The thinking is that a different title might help the group, particularly in eastern Europe.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/c2d03006-53b7-11de-be08-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fc2d03006-53b7-11de-be08-00144feabdc0.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.weaselzippers.net%2Fblog%2F2009%2F06%2Feuropean-socialists-considering-changing-their-name-to-democrats.html&nclick_check=1

(You will need to create a freebie account to read the rest of the article or get lucky with BugMeNot)

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 6:19:21 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Counter research?! Give over. We live here for fuck's sake.

And I live here for fuck's sake too....your research other than biased personal experience?

NG was pointing out he and I both live in the UK. So our research is living daily with European politics, not some crank web site.

The top line of your original link mentions Lee Kaplan of front page mag. Do you really think this shit is UNBIASED research ?

I'm still waiting for cites to your UNBIASED research. Just living there isn't adequate.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 6:21:02 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
Actually, i'm a stone's throw away from you...don't tempt me to prove it!!!
~Charlie crist says, "hi"

Let me get that stone...which direction should I throw it? (Go Jaguars!)

Heya Neighbor. Ever make it to the Rooster in Bayard?

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 6:27:25 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush
I see where Obama is heading* towards the "left" with his proposals in the US. By analogy, the EU is starting to reject the path that Obama wants to take us down...one that has been travelled already by the EU and has found to be a dead end. But Obama wants to go down that path because he doesn't see it as the dead end he is being told it is by the EU.

Just because he is heading in the same direction doesn't mean he's heading for the same destination. There's a whole, who-o-o-ole lotta left to the left of where we are now, and we could fill up quite a bit of it before we even get to the far right border of where the EU is - and I see no reason to believe this country is even capable of going that far left. It's still way, wa-a-ay too conservative a country, and where do you think all those conservatives are going to go while Obama supposedly drags the country to hell in a handbasket? No matter how far left he and the Dems try to go, the conservative voters in this country will act as an anchor holding them back, and the end result will always be something considerably short of where we might have wound up if we hadn't been starting from such a conservative status quo. I think you're trying to frame this in terms of absolutes that just don't necessarily apply.

No doubt that Socialism in France is different than in Germany or Britain or .....

The point is that Obama has every intent, based on his websites, of bringing us down a Socialist path. As far as France? Well, I won't know until I only have to work 35 hours, get 5 weeks of vacation, 12 holidays, etc.
Pres Obama & Co are already trying to go that path...forced vacation pay, even for part time workers. Nationalized Health care.

True, he may not get as far "Left", that I'll concede. But not because Pres Obama & Co. wouldn't want to go that far "Left", which is the point I'm trying to make.

< Message edited by Crush -- 6/8/2009 6:34:00 PM >

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 6:35:46 PM

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/14/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

No doubt that Socialism in France is different than in Germany or Britain or .....

The point is that Obama has every intent, based on his websites, of bringing us down a Socialist path. As far as France? Well, I won't know until I only have to work 35 hours, get 8 weeks of vacation, 12 holidays, etc.
Pres Obama & Co are already trying to go that path...forced vacation pay, even for part time workers. Nationalized Health care.

True, he may not get as far "Left", that I'll concede. But not because Pres Obama & Co. wouldn't want to go that far "Left", which is the point I'm trying to make.

I'm confused, do you think "vacation" pay is a bad thing or not?

as to the original post, the left didnt do 'that' bad, the turnout was miserable and low turnouts always favour right wing parties, a quick look at the chart for the final parliament shows its still fairly evenly balanced once you add in the greens, the true socialists and the various insane far right parties

(in reply to Crush)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/8/2009 7:43:21 PM

DreamGoddess666

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Joined: 5/21/2009
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Why are so many of you acting like "more conservative" is a good thing? It's a very bad thing. I would think that people in alternative lifestyles, and especially those of us who are gay or trans, would be more attuned to the liberal side of things. Conservative is bad, liberal is good. Socialism is the only way we can really protect people. It works a helluva lot better than capitalism, especially when it comes to the big important thing: health care.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/9/2009 2:26:14 AM

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

I'm still waiting for cites to your UNBIASED research. Just living there isn't adequate.

When NG, PS53 and I all agree on something - that is a miracle.

When NG, PS53 and I all tell you the same thing about your premise for this thread therefore - that is either the sign of a miracle or its something that ought to be taken less lightly.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Crush)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/9/2009 3:00:14 AM

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/flash/html/eu.stm

follow this link to see the percentage change in share of the vote by European party grouping in the EU Parliament since the last vote - you can also click to see the changes in share by party in each country.

overall, the EPP (the centre right grouping) was down 1.4% - this is hardly evidence of a shift back right. What is (so far thankfully minor) evidence of a shift right is the success of far right parties in several countries, the kind of people who think and in some cases say, that gypsies, Jews, Muslims et al ought to be "dealt with". Aside from them one could count Euro sceptic parties into the right perhaps, although these parties are at pains to indicate they are neither left nor right, seeking at the same time more power to the people and greater national sovereignty in their preference for a different kind of Union.

these are the numbers - the numbers have no bias - the numbers disprove the premise that Europe is moving right in any way that might be a comfort to the US right (which incidentally would be right of the EPP in Europe). That Obama is moving left is true - but he is moving towards the EPP position, not to some idealistic socialist utopia as feared in a Fox news special near you.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/9/2009 9:47:22 AM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

No doubt that Socialism in France is different than in Germany or Britain or .....

The point is that Obama has every intent, based on his websites, of bringing us down a Socialist path. As far as France? Well, I won't know until I only have to work 35 hours, get 8 weeks of vacation, 12 holidays, etc.
Pres Obama & Co are already trying to go that path...forced vacation pay, even for part time workers. Nationalized Health care.

True, he may not get as far "Left", that I'll concede. But not because Pres Obama & Co. wouldn't want to go that far "Left", which is the point I'm trying to make.

I'm confused, do you think "vacation" pay is a bad thing or not?

as to the original post, the left didnt do 'that' bad, the turnout was miserable and low turnouts always favour right wing parties, a quick look at the chart for the final parliament shows its still fairly evenly balanced once you add in the greens, the true socialists and the various insane far right parties

Government mandated vacation pay? Yes, I think that is a bad thing.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to numuncular)

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