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RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 7:42:00 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I guess you do get the government you deserve... in a democracy.


It applies to all forms of government. France once was a kingdom. What happened with that?

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RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 7:42:59 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You have got to be fucking kidding me  . If people stood up for the bullshit, I can just imagine people like you complaining against the street protests.

If only there were street protests here... or rather, if only there HAD BEEN street protests when they were needed... in the past eight years... but no. This is one of the most apathetic countries in the world.

I guess you do get the government you deserve... in a democracy.


Darlin', I've seen TONS of protests going back the past 8 years and more. So don't even try that sob story with me.


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RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 7:44:09 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...Gitmo, threatened to execute people on a standard of proof that wouldn't get past first base on the mainland.
Oh, but that doesn't count 'cos they were only going to execute non-citizens on hearsay evidence?


We can address that just as soon as our enemies stop decapitating people on youtube. Deal?

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RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 7:58:37 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...Gitmo, threatened to execute people on a standard of proof that wouldn't get past first base on the mainland.
Oh, but that doesn't count 'cos they were only going to execute non-citizens on hearsay evidence?


We can address that just as soon as our enemies stop decapitating people on youtube. Deal?


No.

Because we shouldn't compromise our principles out of fear, out of a sense of vengeance, or out a desire for perceived safety.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 8:05:45 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...Gitmo, threatened to execute people on a standard of proof that wouldn't get past first base on the mainland.
Oh, but that doesn't count 'cos they were only going to execute non-citizens on hearsay evidence?


We can address that just as soon as our enemies stop decapitating people on youtube. Deal?


...nope, the USA is supposed to be a principled, mature democracy......not the equivilant of a snotty kid on the playground that complains, when busted, that thingy over there did it first.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 8:16:59 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       When exactly did we all agree that playing nice is the highest value?  I must have missed that. 

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 8:19:30 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
No.

Because we shouldn't compromise our principles out of fear, out of a sense of vengeance, or out a desire for perceived safety.


Well, you have your principles, I have mine. The difference is you feel our government compromised yours. I don't.


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 8:20:47 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      When exactly did we all agree that playing nice is the highest value?  I must have missed that. 


No shit. That's what I want to know.

Those who fight a battle with "playing nice" as their main goal will never defeat those who just don't give a shit.


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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 8:27:01 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      When exactly did we all agree that playing nice is the highest value?  I must have missed that. 


.....i wouldn't suggest it has a higher value per se. What i would suggest, and strongly defend, is that it's the wisest course in the long term.
Making a virtue out of being a badass and a bully is all very well in biker movies and gay leather BDSM fantasies, but in the real world it causes more problems than it serves.
The USA executing people on spurious evidence does nothing to make it more secure, in fact it merely gives credence to terrorists who characterise it as a corrupt culture.......thus making terrorist action more likely, not less.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 8:44:18 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45


No shit. That's what I want to know.

Those who fight a battle with "playing nice" as their main goal will never defeat those who just don't give a shit.



What I want to know is where this belief originated from, because it sure as hell didn't come from the country I grew up with.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 9:03:43 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

...Gitmo, threatened to execute people on a standard of proof that wouldn't get past first base on the mainland.
Oh, but that doesn't count 'cos they were only going to execute non-citizens on hearsay evidence?


Again, two wrongs don't make a right.  We aren't discussing Gitmo here, which was well known to all of us.  We had a right to protest it.  We weren't shot in the street for doing so.  What is going on in Iran is wrong.  I haven't heard the detractors of Western society agree once.  Which leads me to believe y'all are apathetic cowards or apologistic aids to this brutal behavior.

You can denounce the bad behavior of the West until the cows come home.  But it doesn't change the fact that the Iranian government is brutal and wrong.  Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right. 

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 9:18:30 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
thus making terrorist action more likely, not less.


Perhaps. But with their suicidal attacks....eventually.....however long it takes...but eventually they will run out of terrorists. Between their suicide attacks and us killing the ones we find. They don't have a great life-expectancy.


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 9:34:30 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Threatened yes.

The OP is speaking of actuality, and historically Iran has done that.

Here in the US we can pour 400,000 into the streets of our largest city to protest, and the worst that happen is 40 or so arrests, and none of which result in an execution.

Hell we have college kids just 39 years ago facing down the military, and many dying from bullets. This caused approx 8 million students to strike, closing hundreds of schools, and none of them were hung.

Threatned yes they were, but it did not occur. At least as far as we know.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Some here may feel our government may be broken....but you don't see it getting away with bullshit like that here, do you?



...Gitmo, threatened to execute people on a standard of proof that wouldn't get past first base on the mainland.
Oh, but that doesn't count 'cos they were only going to execute non-citizens on hearsay evidence?


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 10:07:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45


No shit. That's what I want to know.

Those who fight a battle with "playing nice" as their main goal will never defeat those who just don't give a shit.



What I want to know is where this belief originated from, because it sure as hell didn't come from the country I grew up with.




          What is this nonsense you are spouting, RML???  Have you never heard of little things like the atomic bomb and computer controlled gatling guns we come up with from time to time?

     This belief originated from the very real world we live in.  Where are you coming from?

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/26/2009 10:25:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Making a virtue out of being a badass and a bully is all very well in biker movies and gay leather BDSM fantasies, but in the real world it causes more problems than it serves.



          I don't think I agree with your characterization of opposing injustice by force of arms, Phil... 

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/27/2009 3:28:46 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Funny thing though...we've come further in 200 years than they have in 2000.



The people who colonised the United States had the benefit of democratic and enlightenment ideas; they adhered to a certain thought process that rendered them capable of living under a democratic system of government.

The point is that for those colonists democracy was an organic process - they were ready for it. Iran is a completely different situation - you can't appeal to abstract ideas and disregard how people actually think and behave. They have to do that themselves through a process of the evolution of ideas.

Experience is there for all to see: Germany after WW1 and Russia more recently - where people's minds aren't ready for a sudden change to democracy the system breaks down and hardliners fill the void.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/27/2009 3:41:08 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

It applies to all forms of government. France once was a kingdom. What happened with that?


Since you ask. The main cause of the French Revolution was they were almost bankrupt after fighting the seven years war, as well as helping with the War of Independence.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/27/2009 3:43:57 AM   
HatesParisHilton


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Status: offline 		"Barbaric, theocratic shit bags"

Like Salem Puritanical Calvinist Cuntwhistles that whipped indentured Irish to death if they didn't work to death to build the Industries that allowed them to pay Revere enough to make some of those nice silver Revolutionary Items that go for some much $$ at Christies.

Same shitbags that were the grandads of the guys who penned the Declaration of Independence. 

On the Hemp Paper using hemp pulled by the bloody hands of the Irish with whipped backs, btw.

Say, them Iranians and Arabs and many muslims are real found of whippings, ain't they?  Have I got that one right?

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/27/2009 3:47:37 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
thus making terrorist action more likely, not less.


Perhaps. But with their suicidal attacks....eventually.....however long it takes...but eventually they will run out of terrorists. Between their suicide attacks and us killing the ones we find. They don't have a great life-expectancy.



No they wont, each generation of terrorists is replaced with new recruits. Do the maths, if one suicide attack kills just five people, who runs out of people first ? 




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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Iranian cleric urges executing some protesters - 6/27/2009 3:55:21 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The people who colonised the United States had the benefit of democratic and enlightenment ideas; they adhered to a certain thought process that rendered them capable of living under a democratic system of government.

The point is that for those colonists democracy was an organic process - they were ready for it. Iran is a completely different situation - you can't appeal to abstract ideas and disregard how people actually think and behave. They have to do that themselves through a process of the evolution of ideas.

Experience is there for all to see: Germany after WW1 and Russia more recently - where people's minds aren't ready for a sudden change to democracy the system breaks down and hardliners fill the void.


Exactly my point. We were ready for it much sooner and we made it happen. Their society is a dinosaur that refuses to change and adapt.


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Profile   Post #: 40
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