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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 9:04:41 AM

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There's no point in my thinking that i could even contribute an original thought to this thread except of course the correct use of the gerund.

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 9:55:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Most people in Western society see human rights as something that is basically and fundamentally ours -a natural birthright.
Goreans have the view that NOBODY is born with fundamental NATURAL rights, instead, the rights we have our granted to us by society.

Well that is never going to catch on. Already those identifying as Goreans are making it more difficult for themselves than it needs to be.

quote:

This hasn't even anything to do with sex or male dominance. Males can loose their rights in the same manner as females can, simple by no living up to their duties. Both sexes when having lost their rights will be viewed equally unequal to people who have maintained their rights, there is nothing in the Gorean culture or philosophy that claims that females are fundamentally less equal then males (and thus nothing that says that females are less valuable then males).

Oh, really? Then men also have to cover themselves and avoid dancing or expressing their sexuality or risk being enslaved?

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 10:05:37 AM

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quote:

This hasn't even anything to do with sex or male dominance. Males can loose their rights in the same manner as females can, simple by no living up to their duties.

sheeesh...do i sometimes wish this were true in our society.

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 10:10:47 AM

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~FR~

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
Oh, really? Then men also have to cover themselves and avoid dancing or expressing their sexuality or risk being enslaved?

This is a common mistake. Conflating the parables of the fictional culture with the reality of the extrapolated morality.

The 'moral to the story' is that we all have choices & those choices have consequences & making a choice entails handling the consequences. While the variety of choices available to a woman may be distinctly different than those available to a man, the cause=>effect dynamic does not alter.

Norman's fictional illustrations of these concepts need not be re-enacted in order to live a Gorean morality. It may be rather fun, or rather frightening, to do such a re-enactment, but it's altogether separate from the actual living of the morality.

For example: You really don't have to partner up with someone, dress as a turtle & a rabbit, then race through the woods behind the house in order to adopt into your life the moral to Aesop's story of the tortoise & the hare.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 11:04:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
The 'moral to the story' is that we all have choices & those choices have consequences & making a choice entails handling the consequences. While the variety of choices available to a woman may be distinctly different than those available to a man, the cause=>effect dynamic does not alter.

Yes, we all have choices, but are you saying there is no double standard for men and women in this extrapolated morality? Gorean men and women are able to make the same choices and expect the same consequences?

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 11:37:15 AM

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I'm saying that there are double-standards, triple-standards, etc. all over our world. Good or bad, it is what it is. What works for one person, gender, group, ethnicity, society, etc. may not work for another. That diversity is not a "bad" thing.

No two people will make the exact 'same choice' & face the exact 'same consequences'.

I say, celebrate the differences.

~K

< Message edited by Kimveri -- 7/1/2009 11:40:01 AM >

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 12:08:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

I'm saying that there are double-standards, triple-standards, etc. all over our world. Good or bad, it is what it is. What works for one person, gender, group, ethnicity, society, etc. may not work for another. That diversity is not a "bad" thing.

No two people will make the exact 'same choice' & face the exact 'same consequences'.

I say, celebrate the differences.

~K

The concept of "fairness" is the very basis of human morality. To throw it out because it does not obey 'natural laws' is to throw out the entire social contract and unleash a kind of anarchy that even most anarchists would loathe. The existence of double-standards or triple-standards.. what-you-will all over this world we share is not in dispute. However most of us do not celebrate that fact. Most of us work to promote fairness among all people and it is considered a noble goal. You might disagree, but getting enough people to stand with you and impress your will on the society that surrounds you is a futile effort. It is never going to happen. Unless the Gorean philosophy is purged of non-viable concepts like a world where society can exist without fairness, it is doomed to fail and disappear along with its practitioners.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 7/1/2009 12:15:06 PM >

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 12:44:19 PM

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I think "fairness" is quite consonant with Gorean morality. Merit is the measure of what is "fair". I see nothing "unfair" in that. It's not an unearned 'equality', but rather an earned equity.

~K

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 1:47:50 PM

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Yep, all those damn Goreans running around earth, forcibly enslaving people. There should be laws against this kind of thing. Wait. There are laws against this kind of thing.

Not to mention, you are speaking about a custom of a fictional planet, which is different than the moral it is teaching. On that planet, females were subject to enslavement if they acted in ways that were expected of slaves. On that fictional planet they knew the rules of society, and suffered the consequences if they went against them. Just like there are certain societal and governmental rules here on Earth. These rules do not bind a Free person, they can make the choice to follow them or not, as well as accepting the consequences of their actions.

If a Man did not follow the codes of his caste, or other rules on that fictional planet, they could suffer certain fates as well. Men could also be enslaved on Gor. Now if you want to take it out of the realm of fiction, and focus on how the morals and philosophy are applied here in reality, the discussion may be a bit more productive.

So have you posed any of these questions in the Gorean section yet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
Oh, really? Then men also have to cover themselves and avoid dancing or expressing their sexuality or risk being enslaved?

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 2:11:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yep, all those damn Goreans running around earth, forcibly enslaving people. There should be laws against this kind of thing. Wait. There are laws against this kind of thing.

Oh yes there are laws, but that does not always stop folks does it? I was there the year the Tuchuks at the Pennsic campground in Pennsylvania captured a young girl who was there camping with her SCA household. I remember the blind fear on the face of the girls mother when no one could find her and the anger when it was discovered that the was being held captive in the Tuchuk camp.

That is kidnapping. But as far as the Tuchuks were concerned, the girl was travelling unescorted and got too near their campsite. They thought they had done nothing wrong.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 7/1/2009 2:15:58 PM >

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 2:52:23 PM

ishyB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Most people in Western society see human rights as something that is basically and fundamentally ours -a natural birthright.
Goreans have the view that NOBODY is born with fundamental NATURAL rights, instead, the rights we have our granted to us by society.

Well that is never going to catch on. Already those identifying as Goreans are making it more difficult for themselves than it needs to be.

As I'm nothing but an owned kajira and thus cannot claim to be Gorean myself, I cannot be sure. But I really doubt that Goreans consider this in any way relevant to the way they live.
On any random matter: if the majority chooses to do the wrong thing, that doesn't make it right. So the fact that the masses would or would not do X is really irrelevant in deciding an agent-based morality.

quote:

quote:

This hasn't even anything to do with sex or male dominance. Males can loose their rights in the same manner as females can, simple by no living up to their duties. Both sexes when having lost their rights will be viewed equally unequal to people who have maintained their rights, there is nothing in the Gorean culture or philosophy that claims that females are fundamentally less equal then males (and thus nothing that says that females are less valuable then males).

Oh, really? Then men also have to cover themselves and avoid dancing or expressing their sexuality or risk being enslaved?

Within the walls of her own city, no Free Woman could legally be enslaved unless she broke the law and was judged for that. A Free Man could be enslaved or killed for the same reason.
Beyond the walls of their own city Free Women would have to take certain precautions to avoid enslavement, Free Men would have to do the same. Cultural based customs might make that precautions for both sexes might be different, but then again, as far as I know it is also socially acceptable at some locations in the US for men to walk around in public without a shirt on, while for women the same thing would be totally unacceptable.

As others have pointed out before me: there is a difference in discussing the morality put forward in the books versus discussion cultural habits put forward in the books.

< Message edited by ishyB -- 7/1/2009 2:54:11 PM >

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 2:53:25 PM

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and John Edward Robinson , aka, Slavemaster, who lured many, many woman from the internet using the guise of being a BDSM master... how many women did he kill? and the baby he stole from one of his victims? cant point fingers at just the gor community. a nut case is a nut case, no matter what other terms he may use for himself.

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 3:01:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yep, all those damn Goreans running around earth, forcibly enslaving people. There should be laws against this kind of thing. Wait. There are laws against this kind of thing.

Oh yes there are laws, but that does not always stop folks does it? I was there the year the Tuchuks at the Pennsic campground in Pennsylvania captured a young girl who was there camping with her SCA household. I remember the blind fear on the face of the girls mother when no one could find her and the anger when it was discovered that the was being held captive in the Tuchuk camp.

No laws do not stop folks, strong people stop folks. The law is a rule of society, that if broken, can take your freedom and some of your rights away. Being held captive? So strong people went and got her, and then reported it to the proper authorities so that these outlaws could be given due process and punished if found guilty?

quote:

That is kidnapping. But as far as the Tuchuks were concerned, the girl was travelling unescorted and got too near their campsite. They thought they had done nothing wrong.

Well there are all kinds of HUMANS that use various things to justify their actions. If this in fact happened, I am sure the authorities dealt with it, did they not? You see it is a STUPID Gorean that believes they can break the law without consequence, or attempts to enslave someone via force. If they would have studied better, focused on the traits that persuade females (as that is the weapons of our society), they may have had them a nice little slave girl to serve them.

So how did this little story turn out? How many years did they get for kidnapping? In the case of my girl, her former owner was convicted of aggravated stalking, and aggravated battery. He got 11 years, suspended because of a plea deal, but none the less he has it on his record and is monitored.

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 3:36:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Belittled

Yes, it seems we are looking at it from a human perspective. Clearly the miscommunication lies in the definition of equal and in which context we take it.

My submissive and I are equal as humans. With friends, he is my equal. In society, we are equal.
We are not equal in roles. His role, submissive, does not equal (=/=) my role as Dominant.

The term equal is being used however we personally want it to be. In terms of differences, we are not equal. However, I was using it in terms of superiority/inferiority, where it is still merited. We're pretty much talking about the same word with different connotations.

One of the definitions of equal is found on dictionary.com is thus>>>>evenly proportioned or balanced. Therefore there is an equality in a D/s based relationship simply because the submission is balancing out the dominance. It is when you examine the intricacies of that relationship that one will find the unbalances though that applies to the specifics and not the general overview of the relationship.

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 5:15:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel

let me guess, one or both of you is hoping to be in the legal profession. and all that pre-law stuff you read is coming in really helpful here when you can use those words that you've JUST learned!

As someone IN the legal profession, you have NO idea how funny this is.

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RE: Now... is it just me...? - 7/1/2009 5:18:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChasingOblivion
I don't advocate murdering anyone over a disagreement on a website. And if you seriously sat there and watched something like that without doing anything about it then you have some serious issues.

Of course he didn't. He saw no such thing. I'm quite sure he likes to pretend he did, but sadly, it's not true.

< Message edited by Alanshoreisgod -- 7/1/2009 5:19:00 PM >

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