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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:34:50 AM

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I would rather see a submissive led around by leash by her Dominant than listen to a child screaming because they didn't get something they wanted.

There is a possibility that someone will be exposed to something publicly that they are disapproving of every time they go out in public. One can simply look away, its not being forced upon them. As long as two adults are being respectful, polite, and tasteful in a public setting, I see no harm.

--Edited to add "tasteful"

< Message edited by caelestis -- 7/12/2009 1:45:35 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:35:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Kissing someone in public is construed as an act of affection. Leading a gagged sub around on a leash will not be construed by most people as an act of affection, an act of degradation more likely.

As the act of (using a previous example I wrote) a black man kissing a white woman was construed as an act of degradation (at least) to the woman (and caucasian onlookers) 60 years ago.

But yes, we should take into consideration humanity's current social bigotries whenever we make decisions that could imperil ourselves or our partners.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/12/2009 1:36:16 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:47:13 AM

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Total hijack: If you see a um behaving in a manner totally inappropriate for their age, please do not assume the child is spoiled, the parents are ineffective etc. If a um behaves much younger than their years, usually there is a disability causing this that is not detectable by sight. Now a very young um having a tantrum is behaving appropriately for their years, whether or not it is pleasant to witness as all parents can tell you.

We return you to your regular programming here.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:49:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caelestis

As long as two adults are being respectful, polite, and tasteful in a public setting, I see no harm.

The intent behind the thought is positive.

Yet, each of those adjectives is directly affected by the very social moralities and expectations that hinder the act in the first place. The very point of the topic is that most people don't see the acts in question as "respectful", "polite" or "tasteful".

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:51:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Total hijack: If you see a um behaving in a manner totally inappropriate for their age, please do not assume the child is spoiled, the parents are ineffective etc.

True. But that awareness doesn't change how annoying the noises (s)he's making are.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 2:04:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: caelestis

As long as two adults are being respectful, polite, and tasteful in a public setting, I see no harm.

The intent behind the thought is positive.

Yet, each of those adjectives is directly affected by the very social moralities and expectations that hinder the act in the first place. The very point of the topic is that most people don't see the acts in question as "respectful", "polite" or "tasteful".

Well in doing what we do, even in private, it wouldn't be following a few peoples expectations regarding those set words. It is yet another set of words that is subjective. I simply believe that if the participants can hold themselves to a good standard of those as it fits them, go for it, because you really can't please everyone all the time.

Perhaps if it was brought into the open as such, in better light than what one hears in the news or sees on crime shows, it could slowly work its way towards being socially acceptable.

< Message edited by caelestis -- 7/12/2009 2:34:02 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 2:09:10 AM

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Well, Nihilus, I hear what you're saying, I think . . ....

On the one hand I can make no clear insightful stuff about the shame & guilt issues, cuz I'm a conflicted human in that regard . . . . .

On the other hand I see an enormous amount of progress going on with increasing freedom of personal expression. This connects with some of the discussion in LP's 'Growth' thread, acceptance of kink & kink-identified populations are growing . . . . . & walking a person on a leash definitely seems to be in some grey area between clearly innocuous & verboten . . . . . & this stuff seems to shift unexpectedly & far more quickly than I'd anticipated . . . .

For instance, I never expected to see gay marriage in my lifetime, & I've turned out to be pleasantly surprised on that front . . . . .

Burning Man is an interesting experiment in where humans are going with the freedom of personal expression thing. I went in 2002, 2004, & 2007, &, as a parent, I paid particular attention to how kids fit into the whole. Note that there are naked people, fetish outfitted persons, & overt BDSM behaviors going on all over the place. & quite a few ums, I was kinda surprised at the number of small, medium & large ums. So there is, to my eyes, clearly quite a bit more expression of self that is tolerable & probably positive for society to go to . ... .

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 2:11:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

On the one hand I can make no clear insightful stuff about the shame & guilt issues, cuz I'm a conflicted human in that regard . . . . .

Oh, we like ya anyway.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 5:47:53 AM

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Well how one chooses to live their life is up them

My paperwork says I am a natural born citizen of this country and thus am accorded certain privilages some being
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression
my lifestyle choices are my pursuit of happiness as well as my acts of expression

I do not hide my lifestyle from anyone, I do not justify it to anyone, nor will I shield it from anyone.
For people that are uncomfortable with it, well if you don't like it, move
I tolerate vanilla people and their quirks and I demand the same from them

< Message edited by justme1980 -- 7/12/2009 5:48:56 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 5:48:06 AM

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I built a rickshaw for milady. I take her to all the art fairs and such. I also pull her at the bike/jogging path at the river front. People LOVE it. We believe that we are putting female dominance out there in a friendly and fun way. The rickshaw has a buggy whip and when people ask to take our picture, as dozens invariably do, Ms. Mlicious always playfully asks, "With the whip or without?" The answer is always an enthusiastic WITH! Yesterday a young girl shouted out, "You are my Goddess! I want to be just like you!"
We're not out there half naked or with scary costumes on. We're showing them the ultra chivalrous, romantic side of femdom. I really believe that we are fostering more public acceptance.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 6:46:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

Well how one chooses to live their life is up them

My paperwork says I am a natural born citizen of this country and thus am accorded certain privilages some being
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression
my lifestyle choices are my pursuit of happiness as well as my acts of expression

I do not hide my lifestyle from anyone, I do not justify it to anyone, nor will I shield it from anyone.
For people that are uncomfortable with it, well if you don't like it, move
I tolerate vanilla people and their quirks and I demand the same from them

You can demand all you want. Doesn't mean you will get it.

I don't like to create a spectacle that makes the larger percentage of people around me uncomfortable. I don't like to see people sucking one another's faces off, I don't like to see bratty children, etc etc etc.....

I hold myself to a pretty high standard and expect the same from people around me. If they cannot, they are not in my company for long. My dogs have better manners than many people. Even the slutty one laying belly up, legs spread, on the sofa beside me. Plus, she's cuter than most people also.

I don't see it as a legal rights issue, I see it as a manners issue. As much as I would like it to be, this big world isn't all about ME. I share it with a few billion other people. Just because there are trashy bad mannered people sharing it with me, doesn't mean I have to behave just as trashy and bad mannered.

You want to, be my guest. I will look down my nose at you and I will probably not invite you to my home or wish to spend much time with you in yours or elsewhere.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 7:53:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

Well how one chooses to live their life is up them

My paperwork says I am a natural born citizen of this country and thus am accorded certain privilages some being
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression
my lifestyle choices are my pursuit of happiness as well as my acts of expression

I do not hide my lifestyle from anyone, I do not justify it to anyone, nor will I shield it from anyone.
For people that are uncomfortable with it, well if you don't like it, move
I tolerate vanilla people and their quirks and I demand the same from them

You can demand all you want. Doesn't mean you will get it.

I don't like to create a spectacle that makes the larger percentage of people around me uncomfortable. I don't like to see people sucking one another's faces off, I don't like to see bratty children, etc etc etc.....But you tolerate it
I hold myself to a pretty high standard and expect the same from people around me. If they cannot, they are not in my company for long. My dogs have better manners than many people. Even the slutty one laying belly up, legs spread, on the sofa beside me. Plus, she's cuter than most people also.
Just because I am in the lifestyle does not mean I'm spreading my legs for all the world to see
I don't see it as a legal rights issue, I see it as a manners issue. As much as I would like it to be, this big world isn't all about ME. I share it with a few billion other people. Just because there are trashy bad mannered people sharing it with me, doesn't mean I have to behave just as trashy and bad mannered.
Legal as in indescent exposure, spanking, paddling whipping, sex in a public place

You want to, be my guest. I will look down my nose at you and I will probably not invite you to my home or wish to spend much time with you in yours or elsewhere. And that is fine, you don't it, that is ok, but you tolerated it, just like I tolerate all the suckee face and bratty kids and that is all I expect

< Message edited by justme1980 -- 7/12/2009 8:37:04 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 7:58:51 AM

subtlebutterfly

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She said it!
*from now on I'm gonna make it a goal to disagree with every single point tiger makes just for the hell of it I'm way too much on the same page.*

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:06:26 AM

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People will always find offence in something.

What we do is nobody's business... so why the need to "thrust it in their faces"?
My god... so much exposure would render us no longer "special".

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:08:00 AM

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quote:

Still a long way off in most towns but I think society is pushing closer to the point where it is acceptable to see F/F or M/M couples show affection for each other compared to the distant past.

* Partner on leash
* Playful but firm spanking
* Gagged
* Partner following behind in an obvious submissive posture
* Putting a well written and tasteful flyer next to another in a store window
* Pro Dom leaving a business card with others
* ...
* ....

i have no desire to be exposed to anyones kink in public.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:08:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You have to remember something, NZ. I'm a firm believer in not imposing My kink on those who do not wish to be involved in it.

What does that mean though? The same argument can be made that ugly people should not go out in public in order to not "impose" their horrific visage on other people.

We're talking about an act that, at its core, is just a show of affection between two people that does not affect anyone else short of the perceiver's morality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

While the times, they are a changin' I have no right to force exposure to anyone who does not want to be exposed. No, I don't believe everything is acceptable by the general public. Often, the public has said so.

Historically, the public has also said that we should not be "forcefully exposed" to seeing a black man kiss a whiter woman in public; that we should not be "forcefully exposed" to seeing two men kiss in public.

If we want to play the safe card until the rest of humanity catches up in the intelligence, tolerance and sensibility departments, that's a choice for each person to make...but what I don't understand is why we would, in our personal thoughts, still choose to treat those expressions as naughty ourselves...or even passively enable them being treated as such.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You must also keep in mind that I have to maintain a very special balance. While I can be quite public with the kinky folks, My family has certain risks about the vanilla public eye. Believe it or not, that don't ask, don't tell thing doesn't just apply to non-heterosexual couples. It applies to those who participate in BDSM as well. What kind of Dominant would I be if I were to risk My sub, just because I thought leading him on a leash should be seen by everyone as a beautiful act?

I respect the feelings of people that choose to hide things from people...even those whom they would consider family. But, this still comes back to an issue of living without the shroud of personal guilt for being who we are.

I wouldn't see me as risking my sub by leading her around on a leash in public. It's an empowerment of honesty and willingness to live as we are ...who we are, regardless of whether society's current prejudices think we're pseudo-criminals.

And, while I don't presume to tell anyone whether they should be a public champion of something that is supposed to be a beautiful and important part of who they are, I cannot for the life of me understand why we would still try to convince ourselves (when no one "risky" is watching) that it isn't something we should hope and.or strive for...unless (again) we still harbor some inner hidden guilt that what we are doing is "wrong" rather than "right".

It's not an issue of hiding. Where family and friends are concerned, I can count on one hand the number of folks who aren't aware in any of the biological family members who are unaware. I do admit that those in the older generations who are not near our location are among those. I see no reason to upset a frail person pushing eighty. My personal expression comes secondary to harming or confusing someone. Granted, there are some in the older generations who are of better mind and body who understand these things, but that's not everyone's case.

No, you probably wouldn't see it as risking your sub to put her on a leash and walk with her in public. However, unless I'm mistaken, at this time, you do not have a sub who that, by doing so, would risk losing just a couple years short of a two decade long military career. That is not only his current employment, but his retirement compensation and medical care as well. In addition, it's loss would rob him of his fulfillment of serving his country in the manner that means so much to him.

Our little poly family has already had our little brushes bumping heads about don't ask, don't tell. Public display can be considered a form of 'telling'.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:12:26 AM

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Our world is changing as it always will. I remember when the Beatles White Album came out and there was a song on it, "Why don't we do it in the road". In my opinion, I seen to much in the public that I really don't want to be privy too. A female being beaten by her abusive mate, people bleeding in the road, and other types of violence. I seen people ridicule others outside, by putting them down because they are not 'fitting in' to what their society tells them what is right. I would rather see affection on the road and I don't care who it is. I rather have had my child growing up seeing two women kissing, a love spank etc as a way of life then the violence so prevalent in our world. Affection of another is easy for me to show in subtle ways, but I also am not one to show a lot of it. Some things are private to me and most likely will remains that way. I am not one to talk about what I am doing to others on a sexual level. Does it bother me others do? Not really, though I still from the old school that thinks 'those who talk a lot aren't getting any'. Be that right or wrong, just something I have noticed in life. Would it bother me to wear a gag or a leash in the public, yes, but would not bother me to see someone doing so, if done in an adult setting, bars, night clubs etc. I feel there is a place for all things, and that is how I live my life.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:13:46 AM

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BINGO! Why the heck does anyone think we want to see their crap? Breast feeding? natural unless you are in the USA where breasts are boobies and must be hidden. Bratty kids? I gotta say I have glared at a few parents and ever told one 17 yr old who told his mother he should just punch her.. that it wouldnt be a good idea because I WOULD take him down. If things offend me I am going to be vocal when necessary. But why should I be dragged into someone else's attention whore, drama seeking, "OOO look at me I am nasty and wicked". Screams 3 yr old to me. And none of my kids were allowed to exhibit that behavior.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

But there's something about these behaviors that's not about some 'natural display of affection' but more about being an attention whore, going for shock value . . . . . . . .

For me, it feels like it's far more about this stuff being tacky than it is about some gigantic harms . . . . . & there's also that if I expect others to respect my autonomy & boundaries then it's kinda hypocritical for me not to respect theirs . .. . . .

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:17:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Total hijack: If you see a um behaving in a manner totally inappropriate for their age, please do not assume the child is spoiled, the parents are ineffective etc. If a um behaves much younger than their years, usually there is a disability causing this that is not detectable by sight. Now a very young um having a tantrum is behaving appropriately for their years, whether or not it is pleasant to witness as all parents can tell you.

Good post, Celeste.
Also, in my case, i have a three year old who is the size of a 5 yr old...so his behavior can, and does, surprise a few people.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:27:24 AM

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if my offspring are with me, as long as there is:

1. no showing/touching of anyone's genitalia;

2. no foul language (includes sexual language) ie: nothing that would cause me to have to have a birds and the bees talk with my offspring.

I am fine with whatever, walking on a leash, gags, whatever..

Gives me an opening to discuss being accepting of other's differences with my kids.

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