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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:28:30 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I hold myself to a pretty high standard and expect the same from people around me. If they cannot, they are not in my company for long.

So...when in public, you expect people to act according to a personal etiquette standard that they don't know about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't see it as a legal rights issue, I see it as a manners issue. As much as I would like it to be, this big world isn't all about ME.

Yet, the basis by which you measure people is based on your personal system of "manners". It strikes me as much more akin to egocentrism to expect the world around us to curb their choices and non-harmful acts in order to suit out tastes that it does to suggest we should have the freedom to express ourselves genuinely, without illogical derision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I share it with a few billion other people. Just because there are trashy bad mannered people sharing it with me, doesn't mean I have to behave just as trashy and bad mannered.

Who, exactly, are these "bad mannered" people? Would slavekal qualify when he carries his Lady around publicly in his rickshaw? Would a male gay couple kissing in a park qualify? Would having to sit next to this guy in a public transportation vehicle qualify?

Are we talking about people who are running up to you in public and waving something in your face and invading your private space or are we just talking about people who just happen to be in ways that make us uncomfortable for illogical reasons?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

You want to, be my guest. I will look down my nose at you and I will probably not invite you to my home or wish to spend much time with you in yours or elsewhere.

It is certainly your choice...but I don't see how someone can support that view and still support a view that people should be free to be who they are if it's not harming someone else.

Again...out in public we all agree to unspoken waivers to be exposed to things that will be pungently irksome to our tastes. And while I may not invite the folks silling along to Britney Spears out loud to be friends since their music choice offends my "manners", I don't "look down my nose" at them or treat them as attention whores whose sole intention is to annoy others.


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:32:00 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

BINGO!  Why the heck does anyone think we want to see their crap?

Because, if we are honest with ourselves about the tolerance that WIITWD is supposed to engender, we realize it's only "crap" to me or you.


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:37:34 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i have no desire to be exposed to anyones kink in public.

"Kink" is an explicitly sexual term. While we could get into a discussion of the puritanical moralities many seem to have, we're talking about displays of affection.

Kissing is some person's "kink". Hugging could be some person's "kink". Holding hands and skipping in public can be someone's "kink".

Except that only current social moral standards make those more permissible to people.

Depending on where we were, we could just as easily say that permitting you to go out in public without nearly yout entire face covered is a "kink" that I should not be exposed to.


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:43:18 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i have no desire to be exposed to anyones kink in public.

"Kink" is an explicitly sexual term. While we could get into a discussion of the puritanical moralities many seem to have, we're talking about displays of affection.

Kissing is some person's "kink". Hugging could be some person's "kink". Holding hands and skipping in public can be someone's "kink".

Except that only current social moral standards make those more permissible to people.

Depending on where we were, we could just as easily say that permitting you to go out in public without nearly yout entire face covered is a "kink" that I should not be exposed to.

You are being argumentative. By kink i mean public displays of the BDSM lifestyle.


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:45:31 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My personal expression comes secondary to harming or confusing someone.

The fact that you choose to make exceptions for family is sensible to a certain degree. I don't really see a problem with it. But there is no way to logically back up the idea that offending someone's morality by being able to be free to act as we wish is "harm" at all.

Harm does not magically manifest just when someone says they are harmed. And, if they are, the harming agent is internal (restrictive morality imposed upon and expected from others) not external.

But, of course there are reasons in practice that we should curb our expressive enthusiasm of who we are and, below, you go into a rather important one:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

However, unless I'm mistaken, at this time, you do not have a sub who that, by doing so, would risk losing just a couple years short of a two decade long military career.  That is not only his current employment, but his retirement compensation and medical care as well.  In addition, it's loss would rob him of his fulfillment of serving his country in the manner that means so much to him.

And a serviceman or servicewoman could be just as much in peril if they were to disclose their homosexuality. I'm not saying that sometimes, it can be best for the individuals to play along with stone age moralities because the rest of the planet hasn't caught up yet in the ethics department, but in theory I think we should all be able to agree that those restrictions themselves are the thing that is inherently "bad mannered".



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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:49:59 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: justme1980

Well how one chooses to live their life is up them

My paperwork says I am a natural born citizen of this country and thus am accorded certain privilages some being
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression
my lifestyle choices are my pursuit of happiness as well as my acts of expression

I do not hide my lifestyle from anyone, I do not justify it to anyone, nor will I shield it from anyone.
For people that are uncomfortable with it, well if you don't like it, move
I tolerate vanilla people and their quirks and I demand the same from them


You can demand all you want. Doesn't mean you will get it.

I don't like to create a spectacle that makes the larger percentage of people around me uncomfortable. I don't like to see people sucking one another's faces off, I don't like to see bratty children, etc etc etc.....But you tolerate it
I hold myself to a pretty high standard and expect the same from people around me. If they cannot, they are not in my company for long. My dogs have better manners than many people. Even the slutty one laying belly up, legs spread, on the sofa beside me. Plus, she's cuter than most people also.
Just because I am in the lifestyle does not mean I'm spreading my legs for all the world to see
I don't see it as a legal rights issue, I see it as a manners issue. As much as I would like it to be, this big world isn't all about ME. I share it with a few billion other people. Just because there are trashy bad mannered people sharing it with me, doesn't mean I have to behave just as trashy and bad mannered.
Legal as in indescent exposure, spanking, paddling whipping, sex in a public place


You want to, be my guest. I will look down my nose at you and I will probably not invite you to my home or wish to spend much time with you in yours or elsewhere. And that is fine, you don't it, that is ok, but you tolerated it, just like I tolerate all the suckee face and bratty kids and that is all I expect




You either totally misunderstood my points, OR purposely twisted them. No, I do not tollerate shit around me I do not like. If the person/s involved in the offensive behaviour are not in my control to change, I vacate the area. Simple really. It is amazing how easily it is to affect other's behaviour. Usually a look works well. There are very few instances in my life that require me to tollerate other people's assinine behaviour.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:50:04 AM   
SoulPiercer


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I don't get the connection between breast feeding and public BDSM. Unless of course mommy is breast feeding her adult baby. I never quite understood the outcry over breast feeding anyway. It's far more visually appealing to me than watching someone jam a whopper into their face and drool ketchup/mayonaise mix down their chin.

As for public BDSM, we have that annoying concept called "freedom of expression". Yes .. we've got the addendum "unless it's offensive" .. but once you start down that path, it's hard to turn back. While I don't care to watch anyone call their submissive a stupid fucking whore in the middle of the mall, if I push to make it illegal, someone might want to make it illegal for me to wear my "Kill Whitey" t-shirt to church. (That's a joke. I have white neighbors and some of my best friends are white.)

I've said this before, one of the most profound things my father taught me before I left for Army basic training was: for us, black men, defending our country means that one day we may be called upon to lay down our lives, defending someone's right to call us nigger.

With that in mind, I guess I can tolerate Mistress smacking her pet boy on the ass in Wal-Mart.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:56:42 AM   
SteelofUtah


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When it comes to breastfeeding no matter how beautiful or wonderful a thing it is no matter how acceptable or not it becomes it is still a Person Sucking on another persons Breast in Public.

The Point is not the Process the point is the Visual Front.

The reason Public BDSM and Public Breast feeding are offten used in conjunctin with one another isn because most offten the two acts are misunderstood. A Person sees the breastfeeding as something other than what it really is and I believe that people rearely understand what the acts involved in BDSM are truely all about.

Yes they are still two Very different things but the visual aspects of each bring about strong feelings in those who witness it especially those who believe they should not have to. Oddly enough in my opinion to believe one is acceptable you are a hypocrit if you believe the other is not.

Just my Opinion. (Yes I am aware I will take shit for it)

Steel

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:56:55 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

You are being argumentative.

This is a discussion. If you're going to treat responses that don't suit your taste with irrelevant snubbing as your first reaction, perhaps we shouldn't bother?


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

By kink i mean public displays of the BDSM lifestyle.


And here is where a certain divide happens. I suspect it goes right along the line of people who would treat BDSM in their lives as a part-time hobby that they really enjoy rather than a reflection of something inherently theirs (and I'm not saying either view is better than the other).

Substitute "BDSM" with "homosexuality" in the quote above. Would you still be willing to say the sentence?

It's interestingly more habitual for people to treat homosexuality as an inherent facet of the person. Something personal about their being that they should feel free to be openly okay with without moral derision. A lot of people, though, only see BDSM through role-play-tinted glasses. It's evidenced by any individual here who, essentially, would not want to make a facet of it a 24/7.

But, if we can admit that to even one person their BDSM facets are something they treasure (particularly in the context of a relationship) as a beutiful reflection of their feelings both for themselves and their partners....then we're still back to saying that people should not be able to be themselves and display affection in the ways that are fondest to them because it affects our personal sensibilities.

And that mentality has been at the core of every civil rights movement for as long as I can remember.




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"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 8:59:02 AM   
LaTigresse


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I am not going to quote and create a rediculously long post but instead address the points in order.

When in public I have the option to walk away from morons. When said morons are offensive, I do.

If you think my standards are akin to egocentrism, that is your opinion. I don't care. I can and do choose who I want to spend my limited time with.

IF indeed, Slavekal's behaviour was offensive to me, I have the option to not watch, to vacate the area. Pretty simple really.

If I want to look down my nose at people I perceive as rude, bad mannered morons, I will do so. I can live with it.

Rarely will they be aware, because unlike them, I most generally keep my nasty ways to myself. If they are aware, then they've said or done something to find out. I rarely volunteer the information because, I am not so arrogant to think that my ways needs to be theirs, that they need to tollerate me and my personal stuff. Even if they are arrogant enough to think I need to tollerate their questionable shit.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:03:01 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

if my offspring are with me, as long as there is:


1. no showing/touching of anyone's genitalia;

2. no foul language (includes sexual language) ie: nothing that would cause me to have to have a birds and the bees talk with my offspring.

I am fine with whatever, walking on a leash, gags, whatever..


Gives me an opening to discuss being accepting of other's differences with my kids.

While I'd probably agree with you here, allow me to be "argumentative" for a bit.

Isn't the reason we would discount verbal obscenities and the visibility of genitalia based on the very same moral compass anyone else judges other unacceptable things?

The genitals are an interesting topic because that argument has been used by some as a means to "cover up"historic pieces of art in order to "protect" children from depictions of those genitals.

I'm not saying we all don't invariably draw our personal lines somewhere...but it's all based on the same faulty scale, IMO. The only hard line I keep coming back to is the direct physical harming of another person or their property by my "displays".

Why do you feel you could comfortable talk about leashes and collars with you child and not the existence of, say, breasts?


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"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:03:37 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

The reason Public BDSM and Public Breast feeding are offten used in conjunctin with one another isn because most offten the two acts are misunderstood. A Person sees the breastfeeding as something other than what it really is and I believe that people rearely understand what the acts involved in BDSM are truely all about.
the issue i have with this...i consider public displays of BDSM to be subjecting others to your kink. My opinion...ymmv.

Under no circumstances to i consider nursing a child to be kinky.


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:04:28 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

The reason Public BDSM and Public Breast feeding are offten used in conjunctin with one another isn because most offten the two acts are misunderstood. A Person sees the breastfeeding as something other than what it really is and I believe that people rearely understand what the acts involved in BDSM are truely all about.

Yes they are still two Very different things but the visual aspects of each bring about strong feelings in those who witness it especially those who believe they should not have to. Oddly enough in my opinion to believe one is acceptable you are a hypocrit if you believe the other is not.

Just my Opinion. (Yes I am aware I will take shit for it)

Steel

At least it will be shit that comes after 50 points.


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"I know it's all a game
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I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:06:28 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Substitute "BDSM" with "homosexuality" in the quote above. Would you still be willing to say the sentence?
why would I? Homosexuality is not a kink.

But..homosexual or heterosexual...i would not appreciate obvious sexual behavior in public. Groping, touching the genitals, etc. should be saved for a private setting.


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:07:15 AM   
SteelofUtah


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I agree holly,

But we are talking about the people who think breastfeeding in public is Vulgar.

The issue people are missing is that they are not seeing the actual argument in which there are some people who think that Public Breast feeding is wrong and do not think people should have to be subjected to it.

There are people who think that ANY KINKY aspect of what it is that we do is wrong to do in public and do not think anyone should be subjected to it.

The Funny thing is it is the same argument! You are just drawing a different line in the sand for tollerance.

Steel

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:08:09 AM   
LaTigresse


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Ya, I don't want to see groping and face sucking in the grocery store, regardless of genders involved.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:09:18 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

# Partner on leash
# Playful but firm spanking
# Gagged
# Partner following behind in an obvious submissive posture
# Putting a well written and tasteful flyer next to another in a store window
# Pro Dom leaving a business card with others


*Ok, the first one I have no problem with. I don't see a point where walking your lover on a leash ever becomes commonplace, but not being arrested for it is a worthy goal in my mind.

* A playful swat on the tush already happens, and as long as it's only happening between people who have already agreed that that's allowed in their relationship, who cares. Anything -beyond- a playful swat, to me, devolves into that "private" category where, even if it isn't outlawed, is in the same category as making out in public (regardless of gender). It's that point at which I feel the appropriate comment is "get a room".

*Again, the whole partner following in an obvious submissive posture -- well heck, who gets to decide what an "obvious" submissive posture is? Some cultures (like Hasedic Judaism and some Muslim and Orthodox Christian sects) already practice this in public. People still look at it askance, and they always will, because regardless of whether it becomes more commonplace to see in the general population, there will still be, IMO, a large percentage of individuals who are -very- uncomfortable with the idea that life (and some relationships) are not egalitarian.

*Again, the brochure thing already happens in a lot of larger cities, and even happened somewhat in the smaller cities that I lived in when in NC and NM. Tasteful makes the difference in many cases, and if something isn't crass or pushy, most people for whom it isn't aimed will ignore it rather than making a huge issue. Of course, there are -always- going to be 'morality police' who think it's their job to keep people from doing what they enjoy because it conflicts with some moral code that they want to have universally imposed, but in general, I think that tasteful advertising would probably not raise the radar, much less the ire, of the general population.

*In general, I'd say that where one left a business card would depend on whether one thought that the individuals would be receptive to the service offered. The shop my daughter works in has occasional flyers for fetish clubs and cards from local pros in display holders at the register, but the shop she works in caters to people who might enjoy that. It doesn't make any sense to put cards from a pro dominant individual in, say, a gourmet food store. Putting them in things like lingerie or leather stores already happens in many cities.

The fact that peoples' bigotry is going to happen doesn't justify that bigotry, but I think that it is unrealistic to think that it will ever go completely away, and so part of my decision about how I present myself is based on the reality that there are going to be some people who are going to judge me on these presentations, and who are going to judge me harshly, and that that is probably never going to change. If I can't handle that, then I need to arrange my life accordingly, even for the parts of my life that are technically 'legal' or 'accepted', because some folks aren't going to 'accept' no matter -how- legal it is or how 'accepted' it is by the common community.

Much of the discussion about "when will it be ok to..... in public" will be relatively irrelevant in small towns. In places with small, insular populations, unless there is a large, familiar, local population of fetish individuals, it will -never- be commonplace, and is likely to -always- raise eyebrows. Heck, even now there are places where it is difficult to be gay, or transgendered, or anything that isn't Caucasian, with 2.5 kids, a dog, and a white picket fence, and I don't see that changing no matter -how- open the 'mainstream' becomes to alternative expressions of sex, gender, religion, etc. There will always be that shock of the unusual in places where the unusual is just that... unusual. Hopefully, we'll stop feeling that it's ok to KILL people for being unusual, but even then, I suspect that there will always be people who think they have that right to judge someone else's choices and destroy or end the life of the unusual person, and no matter how 'commonplace' something becomes, those kinds of people are probably not going to go away.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/12/2009 9:14:14 AM >


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:09:28 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

If you think my standards are akin to egocentrism, that is your opinion. I don't care.

You do care, or you wouldn't have gone out of your way to say the world is "not all about ME".

I showed a means by which to display holding other people in public to standards they don't even know as being an example of it. You don't have to like it or even respond to it, but calling it an "opinion" with dismissal instead of addressing the fact that the "opinion" was backed by sensibility logic and a linear progression of thought that made sense is intellectually dishonest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

IF indeed, Slavekal's behaviour was offensive to me, I have the option to not watch, to vacate the area. Pretty simple really.

Obviously. I have no problem with this. I'm only choosing to dissect the reasons why any of us would even view something as "offensive" in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

If I want to look down my nose at people I perceive as rude, bad mannered morons, I will do so. I can live with it.

Even if that very act makes you one of the "bad mannered" people?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/12/2009 9:14:09 AM >


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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:13:10 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

why would I? Homosexuality is not a kink.

And a BDSM-related display of affection must be a kink for everyone? So every individual on this site who views their power dynamic and physical interactions in line with it as part of who they are and part of the natural reality oftheir relationship is misleading themselves?

What exactly qualifies as "kink"? Because if it's just displays of affection, we go right back to kissing in public and (if we want to push the slider down far enough) we can fit parents hugging their children in for good measure.


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NihilusZero.com

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(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 9:13:17 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
Bear in mind, everyone, that the website publicdisgrace.com exists because there are countries in which it is totally legal to have "forced" sex in public, complete with all the BDSM regalia you would ever want.  So this isn't a theoretical discussion.  There are places in the world -- "civilized" places -- where far more is permitted than the bullet points mentioned in the OP.

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(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 60
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