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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/19/2009 11:42:58 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

US is not a true nation


........actually this is an interesting point.

In the UK, health policy was broadly set by Wetminster. However, with the rise of regional governence, things are beginning to change. The Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have modified areas of health care.

In Canada health care is run Provincially, but to Federal standards. Central government sets levels of basic care and the provinces are obligated to provide them.

i can see how attempting to run a universal health care system in the US from a Federal perspective could run into trouble. As Awmslave points out, the US is not a nation in the same way that most european nationa are. The states have lots more influence.

The obvious solution is to borrow from the Canadian model (and the model that the UK NHS is moving towards) and have Federal government set minimum levels of universal health care, but have the states decide how to implement them. It'd be an obligation to provide universal health care, but let the details be worked out on the ground at state level.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 2:22:35 PM   
Brain


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Sebelius: Possible tax on rich for healthcare

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- More work is needed on proposed health care legislation to make sure that it doesn't add to the budget deficit, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said Sunday.

Health Secretary Kathleeen Sebelius said it may be necessary to tax the wealthy to pay for health care reform.


Appearing on the NBC program "Meet the Press," Sebelius said a tax surcharge on wealthy Americans is "a legitimate way to go forward."
The taxes would start with people making $350,000.

She noted the tax surcharge provision in a House proposal was one of several options under discussion to help pay for overhauling the nation's ailing health system.

A final bill "will be paid for -- it will not add to the deficit," Sebelius said of health care reform, which is President Barack Obama's top domestic priority.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/19/health.care/index.html?eref=rss_us

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 2:34:37 PM   
Lockit


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Great... so we have a nation at war basically. First we establish the upper and lower classes and then make them resent each other. Gotta love how these people think! Oh... we can't afford this... why bother cutting back, we will just find a new way to tax them, oppress them and then we can rule with an iron fist. Of course we can ID them all and then track them with an implant and control those who wish to fight us with rocks and broom sticks. (rolling eyes)



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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 2:44:31 PM   
Brain


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Obama demands Congress move quickly on healthcare reform



Reporting from Washington -- President Obama, calling the need for healthcare reform "urgent" and "indisputable," said today that it is not his own political fortune that is at stake, but rather the health of the nation's economy.

"The need for reform is urgent, and it is indisputable," the president said, in an appearance at the Children's National Medical Center.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-healthcare21-2009jul21,0,318541.story

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 2:50:16 PM   
Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Great... so we have a nation at war basically. First we establish the upper and lower classes and then make them resent each other. Gotta love how these people think! Oh... we can't afford this... why bother cutting back, we will just find a new way to tax them, oppress them and then we can rule with an iron fist. Of course we can ID them all and then track them with an implant and control those who wish to fight us with rocks and broom sticks. (rolling eyes)




I think if you make more than $350,000 a year, which is easily a lot of money, you can afford to pay a little bit more in taxes. What’s wrong with people on Wall Street or other millionaires making ridiculous salaries like Alex Rodriguez, what’s wrong with them paying a little bit more? After all, during the Bush years the rich did nothing but become more wealthy all the time anyway.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 2:53:21 PM   
Lockit


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By the time the powers that be get done tapping into that $350,000 a year... they will be clearing $75,000.  I may exaggerate... but you know... as long as they think they can, while they say they won't... are you going to trust them and justify their actions?

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 5:07:36 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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I don't know -- I think that if everyone wants health care, everyone should pay. If we all pay a flat percentage, then nobody gets shafted and everyone contributes -something- to overall health. The only ones who don't pay are those who have absolutely -no- income (not adjusted income, but real income). Shoot, the plan that I signed onto provided a 3-3.5% flat tax, across the board, corporate and private. I figured that it came out to less than what I paid last year in insurance premiums and prescription co-pays, and was about 1/3 of what I paid in hospitalization co-pays (and I have a healthcare policy that is pretty doggone good!)

DC

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/20/2009 5:08:08 PM >


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 7:01:30 PM   
nevergrowdup


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One of the most compelling pieces I've seen yet is a PBS interview with Wendall Potter, a former big wig at Cigna who gave up his cushy job in PR because he realized that the little guy was hurting while the corporate executives were living in excess.  He talks about how Cigna would deny expensive treatments, drop people that became too expensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmEwhakknkk

I've heard that the difference between conservatives and progressives is an opinion on who will handle matters better ... corporations with the profit motive or government with inefficiencies.  Free market thinkers will show how private schools are more efficiently run, which is largely true, but they do compete with free public schools, so they have the incentive to keep quality high and cost low.  The problem is that there's no such incentive in health care.  If the pubic option was a choice, perhaps then we'd see some real changes.

If the private insurers are allowed to play in the field, there must be new rules ... like the inability to drop coverage or raise premiums based on the health of a particular patient.

I've been separated from the hubby almost two years.  We're ready to move on the divorce but that's on hold now.  Why?  He lost his job.  If we divorce, he'll have no health insurance.  He's 50 years old, heart disease runs rampant in the family (usually with a severe first heart attack in the early 50s).  He has high BP meds with co-pays over $50/month ... without well over $300.  If something happens to him, that would wipe out all his assets.  I don't love him, but I do want what's best for him ... and if he loses his ability to pay for himself, that means I have to figure out a way to support my kids through college alone.

There's got to be a better way.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 8:06:56 PM   
Sanity


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Everything's a huge crisis with that guy, everything has to be rushed through NOW without debate, without Congress (or much less the public) getting a chance to read or debate whatever the latest "urgent" fix is that he cooks up.

Its getting so old so fast that even many Democrats are getting uneasy about the way he operates. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Obama demands Congress move quickly on healthcare reform



Reporting from Washington -- President Obama, calling the need for healthcare reform "urgent" and "indisputable," said today that it is not his own political fortune that is at stake, but rather the health of the nation's economy.

"The need for reform is urgent, and it is indisputable," the president said, in an appearance at the Children's National Medical Center.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-healthcare21-2009jul21,0,318541.story


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 8:11:54 PM   
Sanity


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And a little more, and a little more...

“The problem with socialism is that eventually, you run out of other people’s money.”

Margaret Thatcher



quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I think if you make more than $350,000 a year, which is easily a lot of money, you can afford to pay a little bit more in taxes. What’s wrong with people on Wall Street or other millionaires making ridiculous salaries like Alex Rodriguez, what’s wrong with them paying a little bit more? After all, during the Bush years the rich did nothing but become more wealthy all the time anyway.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 7/20/2009 8:13:05 PM >


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 10:05:34 PM   
philosophy


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...yanno Sanity. Those of us who managed to survive Thatchers disasterous assault on British society aren't that impressed by you relying on quotes from her.

She may have said things that you like....but her government spent most of the time figuring out ways to take money from, first, the working class then the middle class in order to give fat tax breaks to the very most well off.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 10:12:41 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Everything's a huge crisis with that guy, everything has to be rushed through NOW without debate, without Congress (or much less the public) getting a chance to read or debate whatever the latest "urgent" fix is that he cooks up.
I sort of agree with you on the urgency thing. He is right, the need for reform is urgent, and it is indisputable, but that does not mean that there shouldn't be careful consideration of what will be a multi-billion (if not trillion) dollar program. A little less haste and a little more reflection can't be that bad a thing when dealing with something as imoprtant as this.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 10:34:48 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Everything's a huge crisis with that guy, everything has to be rushed through NOW without debate, without Congress (or much less the public) getting a chance to read or debate whatever the latest "urgent" fix is that he cooks up.
I sort of agree with you on the urgency thing. He is right, the need for reform is urgent, and it is indisputable, but that does not mean that there shouldn't be careful consideration of what will be a multi-billion (if not trillion) dollar program. A little less haste and a little more reflection can't be that bad a thing when dealing with something as imoprtant as this.


And I agree with both of you. I understand why he's doing it this way - he's enjoying a very high "honeymoon" public approval rating, which will certainly be lower next year as the economy continues to struggle, and next year is also an election year.  His political capital, and ability to force things through and appeal directly to the American people for support, will never be higher than it is now. But even though I understand it, i still don't like his high-handed and reckless way of doing things. Measure twice, cut once. The sheer magnitude of some of the legislation he's rushing through requires a lot more time and a lot more careful consideration of the issues, especially if he's going to be subcontracting it out to the congressional committees and the likes of Reid and Pelosi.


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/20/2009 11:36:44 PM   
MissAnimus


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Government run healthcare. There's free cheese in a mouse trap too.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 3:33:09 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...yanno Sanity. Those of us who managed to survive Thatchers disasterous assault on British society aren't that impressed by you relying on quotes from her.

She may have said things that you like....but her government spent most of the time figuring out ways to take money from, first, the working class then the middle class in order to give fat tax breaks to the very most well off.


Phil, wil you stop getting technical please.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 6:28:18 AM   
Sanity


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Margaret Thacher is the last ray of sunshine that Britain has seen for years and years. You two are simply not used to the light...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...yanno Sanity. Those of us who managed to survive Thatchers disasterous assault on British society aren't that impressed by you relying on quotes from her.

She may have said things that you like....but her government spent most of the time figuring out ways to take money from, first, the working class then the middle class in order to give fat tax breaks to the very most well off.


Phil, wil you stop getting technical please.


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:04:47 AM   
Brain


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Obama on GOP Criticism: 'This Isn't About Me This is about a health care system that's breaking American families,'

Referring to comments by Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., Friday that "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him," the president responded: "This isn't about me. This isn't about politics. This is about a health care system that's breaking American families, breaking American businesses and breaking American economy, and we can't afford the politics of delay and defeat when it comes to health care."

The president also notched up his criticism against insurance companies, saying that "the current system works better for drug companies and insurance companies than for the American people


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8125359&page=1


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:39:14 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Margaret Thacher is the last ray of sunshine that Britain has seen for years and years. You two are simply not used to the light...




....and you didn't live there.

An astonishing rise in the number of young people living on the street was directly attributable to her policies.........as was the destruction of much of the UK's heavy industry.

There is a lot of irony in the quote you dredged up, because running out of other peoples money is exactly what she did. The poll tax was the final straw.......up until them she'd mostly taken money from the poorest in society to give those tax breaks to the richest.......but the thing about poor people is that they don't have a lot of money to start with. Once she'd taken as much as she could she started in on the middle class. That's what started the poll tax riots which, arguably, eventually brought her down.

.....and don't get me started on her support for Pinochet......

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:45:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

...i can see how attempting to run a universal health care system in the US from a Federal perspective could run into trouble. As Awmslave points out, the US is not a nation in the same way that most european nationa are. The states have lots more influence...


indeed, they have influence...but only within their borders.
 
thanks to Federal Law that directly conflicts with California State Law, this slave cannot obtain her medicine, prescribed by an MD, from any CVS, Rite-Aid or other traditional pharmacy, nor will ANY insurance cover ANY of the expense of it when she does obtain it from an alternative, yet State sanctioned source.
 
she is also at risk of prosecution by federal authorities, for posessing or being under the influence of the prescribed medication regardless of the fact that it is prescribed by an MD and completely legal for this slave to posess, cultivate and/or consume as far as State Law is concerned.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:55:18 AM   
subtee


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~FR

I would like to see any legislator who votes against health care reform because of government option decline their own government-provided health care protection.


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