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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 8:07:22 PM   
Sanity


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Hi Lucy, and thank you! The trip was great.

I don't think we're far from agreement on this one, your way of saying it ("...he has way to much on his plate and yes that is an issue") is just, a kinder, gentler way of saying almost the same thing.

I know I'm awfully harsh on the poor guy... sometimes 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

response to Sanity(welcome back btw)

ok I listened to the clip of the conference call. The point in question was about  Section 102 of the House health legislation would outlaw private insurance. He asked: “Is this true? Will people be able to keep their insurance and will insurers be able to write new policies even though H.R. 3200 is passed?” President Obama replied: “You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you are talking about.
the guy is on a conference call taking all sorts of questions and hes not familiar with one section of a huge bill???
Try listening to the actual clip...Only the heritage org, and drudge could come up with it as not knowing anything about the bill.Faux will also grab it, no doubt.
Sorry this isnt proof of anything, cept he has way to much on his plate and yes that is an issue




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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 8:18:25 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

well I know that for me and  a lot of canadians and brits  we are used to having what we have, and cant understand why America doesnt have something that covers everyone. To read, see and know people who are suffering from lack of decent coverage and having to worry about bills in the thousands is to me..appaling.
Wether its self interest, selfishness or ignorance of what others go thru, I dunno.I dont spose I will ever figure it out.
To think that half the population of the UK and Canada put together(total94 million est)  have no health care coverage and are to blame for their own "inability to earn more money or inability to budget what they have" is frankly sickening
Lucy



And to me the expectation that those with the ability to provide for themselves should receive handouts is frankly frightening.


Okay now... let's see how scared you can get. You are driving down the road and some pretty lil thing in a mini van, talkin on the phone.. looking back at the um in the back seat, plows right into your ass! You have insurance... no problem... does she? Many fights can take place but in the meanwhile you and your lil insurance card go whizzing away with loud sounds and to the ER you go. Your head has been smashed in and there's a thing or two wrong with your arm. They really don't think you will make it but because you have an insurance card, they do their best to make you all better.

Months later you are not better and there's a fight a brewing. Your insurance card is about maxed out and the company is looking at you funny. Then one day when nurse Mary walks into your room, you find out through her talking to your sitter that you have a visitor.  A social worker, again, because although you aren't on benefits from the government, the insurance company has decided that they are about done paying your bills and well... you are just going to have to find another way.

You are going to have a long time in fixin that arm of your's and well, your head isn't doing all that well.  Guess what dude... no one wants you either. You get what all those lil scum bags who couldn't afford insurance get... and let's not forget those who couldn't get an insurance company to cover them.

Not to mention pretty soon there may be dna testing done so they can forget you long before that mini van gets you.

I wasn't a free loader.. I am still living on my own income, not the tax payer... no medical much to my dismay and suffering and I do mean suffering. I once had all sorts of insurance, a career, a life... and I lived in a custom home with custom everything.

If it can happen to me and happen to my son... god bless your lil heart it could happen to you.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:07:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Amusing to see basic medical coverage referred to as a handout....priceless shit you post ,just priceless.


In case you really can't read, I said for those who can provide for themselves...yes it is a handout. There is no "right" to healthcare anymore than there is a right to a house, or a car, or even a job. Go out and earn it. The socialist bent this country is taking is absolutely fucking scary.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:15:32 PM   
Arpig


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What many of those opposing health care reform fail to realise is that it isn't a handout, it is an insurance program, one that, if done properly, covers everybody exactly the same, and everybody pays for it, either through their taxes or through premiums (in Canada this varies according to which province you are in. Ontario dropped its direct pay premiums releatively recently in favour of funding through taxes). There are procedures that are not covered (generally experimental or non-essential ones), and some glaring gaps (again this varies by province) in coverage, in Ontario there is no coverage for dental or eye care, or for prescription drugs, except for the very poor.

What there isn't is a draconian bureaucracy that one must navigate to get your treatment. When I have a problem I go to my GP (cost to me: $0), he examines me and orders some tests, an x-ray, and a CAT scan and makes an appointment with a specialist. I go to any one of a dozen or so medical labs in the city (my choice) without making an appointment and wait a reasonable amount of time (20-30 minutes) and have the blood drawn and the appropriate other tests done (cost to me: $0). Depending on which lab I choose, I can have the x-rays done at the same time, otherwise I may have to go to a different lab and wait another 15 minutes or so and get the X-ray done (cost to me: $0). Within a few days I get a call from the hospital and get a booking for the CAT scan a roughly a week later, I go at the appointed time and wait all of 3 or 4 minutes before I get the scan done (cost to me: $0). I then go to the specialist and get checked out (cost to me: $0). Then I go back to my GP and get the results of all the tests done, and he prescribes me the appropriate medications (cost to me: $0). Then I go fill that prescription...what I pay here depends of course on what drugs they are and what sort of drug coverage I have, in Ontario I have no government coverage unless I am on welfare or disability or otherwise very financially challenged in which case I pay $2 per prescription, but generally the situation here is pretty much like it is the states, except that drugs as a rule are cheaper in Canada (why else do Americans cross the border to get Canadian drugs). As I said before, this varies by province, in Quebec they have a universal drug plan of some sort.

So for the entire procedure my total costs are $0 + the cost of the drugs. The total amount of time spent dealing with givernment bureaucrats is exactly nil. I wouldn't have to even fill out any forms or submit anything (unless I have private drug coverage, of course). In exchange for this I pay higher taxes, however the amount is dependant on income and ranges from $450 to $900 (on incomes of $200,600 or more) per year on top of regular income taxes. Not half bad if you ask me, I get far simpler and more comprehensive coverage for far less, as does everybody in Ontario...how many US citizens have a comprable health plan that costs them $37.50 to $75 a month? One where there are no out of pocket costs whatsoever except for drugs?


< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/21/2009 9:21:23 PM >


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:18:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

media bullshit because it makes news. There is no "constant barrage" and audits show that insurers overpay more than they underpay. They do have a right to enforce contracts, ya know?


I believe the "media bullshit" you are referring to is called Fox News, which tells you that all other news is part of the evil liberal media.

And since you are so averse to providing any references for your claims I thought I would help out.

These are just the top of the list of almost 40,000 entries if you do a search on insurance lawsuits for refusing to pay for treatments.

Autism patients' treatment is denied illegally, group says
In a lawsuit, Consumer Watchdog, a Santa Monica group that monitors insurance practices, is asking a judge to order the Department of Managed Health Care to require insurers to provide autistic members with the services their physicians have ordered.

Schwarzenegger Administration Sued for Allowing Health Insurance
Breaking news — July 01, 2009Schwarzenegger Administration Sued for Allowing Health Insurance Companies to Deny Autism Care

Insurers' Refusal To Cover Eating Disorders Prompts Lawsuits

New Ways to Force Insurance Companies to Play by the Rules

Recent developments in health insurance, lawsuits against private ...Across the country, patients are filing lawsuits against insurance companies for canceling health insurance policies and refusing to pay medical bills

JustHealth | Montana woman wins $5.3 million bad-faith insurance ...
The company's refusal to pay the medical bills delayed and interfered with Chilcote's medical treatment, according to the lawsuit.

quote:


If you and your docs followed proper procedures then the bills eventually got paid. Its unfortunate if some low level administrator had no basis for the challenge but do you think it would better under a government plan? ROFLMFAO.


Then why did I have to battle them?  My "docs" and the hospital were approved Anthem providers.  Are you suggesting they did not know how to follow the procedures when they were approved by the insurance company?

And yes I do think it would be better under a government plan.  My father was a disabled veteran who spent his life in and out of VA hospitals, so I'm well acquainted with the differences.

quote:


The issue isnt whether its a good idea or not, the issue is people dont do it, whether its paid for or not.


Which is directly contrary to you saying earlier that it should not be paid for at all.


quote:


 so insurance is to blame for something that isnt appropriate to insure in the first place???? Do you buy insurance for an oil change? For cutting your lawn? For painting your house?


And what would be those health items that are inappropriate to insure?  Regular checkups?  You just implied above that it was a good idea.  And it's pretty ridiculous to compare health insurance for regular exams to your examples.

quote:



 Why should someone else pay for their inability to earn more money or inability to budget what they have?


Because a person's health and well-being should not be decided on the basis of cost.  We've spent nearly as much on a pointless war in Iraq over the past six years as the proposed health plan would cost over ten years. 








1. People do sue without a solid basis for doing it. Thats one of the anchors dragging the health care system down. Find those that won..they are few and far between.

2. I dont know about your docs or your anthem administrator. Did they get paid eventually? As I said, if so its unfortunate that it was a hassle. The customer reps at anthem are the same as anywhere else...some good some bad.

3. VA Hospitals are far from a valid representation of what is being proposed.

4. I said that routine care shouldnt be INSURED, not that it shouldnt be paid for. People do seem to have forgotten the difference, thanks for proving that.

5. My examples were right on the mark. They are routine, low cost, predictable preventive measures, just as health exams are.

6. Why shouldnt a persons health be decided based on cost? Everything else is, and it most certainly will be under a Government plan. The only difference is who makes the decision, you or a bureaucrat.

7. Because you dont understand the world and mistakenly think that Iraq was pointless doesnt mean you have to fuck up every other thread with that bullshit.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:27:00 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

The only difference is who makes the decision, you or a bureaucrat.
The point you seem to miss willbuer (well one of many to be honest) is that it doesn't have to be that way. In Canada it is me and my doctor who decide what treatment I need, not some bureaucrat.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:28:52 PM   
Arpig


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An update on my post about the costs of Ontario's health plan. There is an Employer Health Tax that is levied on employers with a payroll greater than $400,000. So far I have not ascertained how much it amounts to yet, but I will post it as soon as I can track it down.
OK here's how it works, the first $400,000 in payrol is exempt, and the rate on the remainder ranges from 0.98% to 1.95% of payroll. The tax maxes out on payrolls of  $400,000 or more on top of the basic exemption (so at $800,000).

So lets take the hypothetical "average" Ontarian, lets be a little generous and say an income of $70,000. The Employer Health tax on his income amounts to between $665 and $1365 (assuming his employer has a payroll of over $400,000), so the total cost of the health plan as follows:

Paid through direct taxes: $600.00
Paid by employer: $665.00 - $1365

Total cost: $1265 - $1965  .... monthly equivalent: $105.42 - $163.75...stil an incredible deal if you ask me.


< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/21/2009 9:42:44 PM >


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:30:30 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The only difference is who makes the decision, you or a bureaucrat.
The point you seem to miss willbuer (well one of many to be honest) is that it doesn't have to be that way. In Canada it is me and my doctor who decide what treatment I need, not some bureaucrat.



We've already discussed Canada ad nauseum. You and your doctor are welcome to decide on a course of treatment, and then you are welcome to wait 6 months to 2 years to get it.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:38:20 PM   
Brain


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Health Insurance Industry Spins Data in Fight Against Public Plan

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072101677.html?hpid=topnews

Health Insurance Industry Spins Data in Fight Against Public Plan

By David S. Hilzenrath
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, July 22, 2009



The industry that helped scuttle health reform 15 years ago with its "Harry and Louise" ads is back, voicing support for a central element of the Obama administration's plans: making sure everyone is covered.

That does not mean the industry is backing the administration. Indeed, the leader of the insurance lobby has sent lawmakers a message: Be careful what you change, because "77 percent of Americans are satisfied with their existing health insurance coverage."

Karen Ignagni, president of America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), invoked the statistic to argue against the creation of a government-run insurance option. But the polls are not that simple, and her assertion reveals how the industry's effort to defend its turf has led it to cherry-pick the facts.

The poll Ignagni was citing actually undercuts her position: By 72 to 20 percent, Americans favor the creation of a public plan, the June survey by the New York Times and CBS News found. People also said that they thought government would do a better job than private insurers of holding down health-care costs and providing coverage.

In addition, data from a Kaiser Family Foundation poll last year, compiled at the request of The Washington Post, suggest that the people who like their health plans the most are the people who use them the least.

Those who described their health as "excellent" -- people who presumably had relatively little experience pursuing medical care or submitting claims -- were almost twice as likely as those in good, fair or poor health to rate their private health insurance as excellent.

The level of satisfaction expressed with private insurance was essentially the same as that with Medicare, the government program for the elderly and disabled.

The industry's stance against a public health plan revives shades of 1994, when it was instrumental in blocking President Bill Clinton's health-care proposals.

"A government-run plan would turn back the clock on efforts to improve the quality and safety of patient care," AHIP has argued. Such a plan "will ultimately limit choices and access," the big insurer WellPoint contends.

But systemic problems have persisted for 15 years, and it is not clear how much private insurers have done, or can do, to solve them.

"Insurers promise choice, they promise innovation, they promise a lot of things, but I think they've delivered very little," said Alan Sager, professor of health policy and management at Boston University. "I think net they give us very bad value for the 10 to 20 percent share of the health dollar they skim off the top."

Instead of choice, they offer "the illusion of choice," he said.

Health-care costs have continued to rise faster than personal incomes and economic growth. Even the industry agrees that much of the spending is wasted, exposing patients to unnecessary risk.

Insurers argue that a government plan could dominate the market, reducing consumers' options. But in the private market, options are limited by employers who restrict employees' choice of insurers and by insurers who restrict their choice of doctors.

Cigna, one of the nation's largest insurers, took away its own employees' alternatives in 2006 and left them with only high-deductible coverage.

"There were a lot of unhappy people," said Wendell Potter, who until last year was Cigna's head of corporate communications. For many people enrolled in such plans, "the deductibles are so high that they forgo care," he said.

Long a defender of the industry, Potter has become an outspoken critic of what he calls its "duplicitous" public relations and lobbying campaigns.

Few people have a better vantage point on the industry's efforts to improve quality and efficiency than Joseph P. Newhouse, professor of health policy and management at Harvard University, editor of the Journal of Health Economics and member of the board of insurance giant Aetna. Asked what results the industry's innovations have yielded, Newhouse said: "It's just very difficult to give much of an evidence-based answer to those questions . . . in either direction."

With respect to the disease-management programs the industry touts -- efforts to make sure people with chronic illnesses get the care they need -- "by and large, the literature suggests it works in some cases, but those cases are fairly limited," he said.

AHIP has produced a stack of glossy reports describing health insurers' efforts to improve care. In recent testimony, Ignagni said private health plans serving the elderly have been highly successful in reducing hospital admissions and readmissions for patients with diabetes and heart disease.

Yet one of the AHIP reports says that in an Aetna Pathways to Excellence hospital incentive program, "readmission rates did not improve significantly."

Opponents of a public option argue that it could put government bureaucrats between patients and doctors. Today, for people with commercial or employer-sponsored coverage, care is overseen by private bureaucracies. Where government bureaucracies answer to the body politic, the corporate versions answer to Wall Street.

The issue of whether a public plan would be more successful at bringing costs under control is harder to evaluate. As a prototype for government-run health care, Medicare has failed to control costs and makes little effort to restrict care.

Economists generally agree that if costs are to be brought under control, someone must say no to care that doctors propose and patients demand. So far, that role has fallen primarily to insurers.

"Private insurers have effectively engaged in rationing, so they're doing the dirty work for everybody else," said Jeff D. Emerson, a former health plan chief executive. "It's a thankless job . . . but somebody has to do it or health care will be even more expensive than it is now."

Private insurers might be better situated than the government to do the unpopular work of saying no, said Paul B. Ginsburg, president of the Center for Studying Health System Change, because they are less susceptible to political pressure.




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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:51:39 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

We've already discussed Canada ad nauseum. You and your doctor are welcome to decide on a course of treatment, and then you are welcome to wait 6 months to 2 years to get it.
Willbuer, I have never waited 6 months for treatment. I have never waited more than 5-6 weeks and that was for non-critical surgery. You have not discussed Canada, you have discussed a fictional Canada, one that is not born out by the experiences of people who actually live in Canada. You have no idea whatsoever of how the system works up here, and you base your opinions on blatantly false scare stories that have no basis in the reality we live every day. There have been several Canadian poster in this thread who have pointed out that the stories being spread in the US about Canada's health system are not true, based on first hand experience over many years, yet you still cling to your fabrications.

You clearly have no interest in learning anything beyond your right wing talking points. Despite what you want to be true, here are the facts of the matter: in Canada everybody has access to comprehensive health care exceeding that of the majority of Americans, and it is delivered at a fraction of the cost. Chew on that a few minutes and come back with another lie.


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 9:59:51 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Arpig, what are you doing posting on the internetz? Why aren't you camped out in a tent on the sidewalk outside your doctor's office, waiting for that appointment you have scheduled in May, 2011?

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:05:03 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

We've already discussed Canada ad nauseum. You and your doctor are welcome to decide on a course of treatment, and then you are welcome to wait 6 months to 2 years to get it.
Willbuer, I have never waited 6 months for treatment. I have never waited more than 5-6 weeks and that was for non-critical surgery. You have not discussed Canada, you have discussed a fictional Canada, one that is not born out by the experiences of people who actually live in Canada. You have no idea whatsoever of how the system works up here, and you base your opinions on blatantly false scare stories that have no basis in the reality we live every day. There have been several Canadian poster in this thread who have pointed out that the stories being spread in the US about Canada's health system are not true, based on first hand experience over many years, yet you still cling to your fabrications.

You clearly have no interest in learning anything beyond your right wing talking points. Despite what you want to be true, here are the facts of the matter: in Canada everybody has access to comprehensive health care exceeding that of the majority of Americans, and it is delivered at a fraction of the cost. Chew on that a few minutes and come back with another lie.




It is not a fictional Canada, its a Canada that I know very well.

1. My son billeted with a family in Alberta. He waited a year for a knee replacement during which he was out of work and in great pain.
2. His coach's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. After the removal of a tumor she waited 18 weeks for radiation.
3. A teammate was slashed in the eye. He had to come the US, paid for by his Junior team, for surgery on his cornea that would have taken a minimum of 4 months.

I know Canada far better than you know the US my friend.
2.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:09:38 PM   
MzMia


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I like many others, have many idea's in my head concerning
America's crisis health care situation.
 
One thing about it, if/when we create a new health care policy, they damn
well better include hiring thousands of doctors, nurses, health care providers,
and building a lot of clinics, urgent care centers and hospitals in all the states.
 
I think we all have heard horror stories about people waiting in emergency rooms.
 
The legislation better include creating thousands and thousands of facilities and people
to provide the care that is needed, in all 50 states.
Long Wait Times for Overcrowded Emergency Rooms Across the U.S. - US News and World Report

< Message edited by MzMia -- 7/21/2009 10:29:30 PM >


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:12:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I like many others, have many idea's in my head concerning addressing
America's crisis health care situation.
 
One thing about it, if/when we create a new health care policy, they damn
well better include hiring thousands of doctors, nurses, health care providers,
and building a lot of clinics, urgent care centers and hospitals in all the states.
 
I think we all have heard horror stories about people waiting in emergency rooms.
 
The legislation better include creating thousands and thousands of facilities and people
to provide the care that is needed, in all 50 states.


That assumes that there wont be a flight of capable individuals to other more rewarding businesses other than medicine after they get done screwing things up, just as quality physicians leave Canada and the UK for the US.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:16:44 PM   
Lockit


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Dude.. even for a poor older woman like me... if my son was in Canada waiting a long time for a knee surgery... I'd have him back here in a heartbeat and selling everything I had to pay for it. No friggin way would my son or daughter wait eighteen months with me knowing it!

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:16:44 PM   
subtee


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Let me ask you this. do you ever think, "if I was the King, and had to consider all of the consequences and costs, etc., I would do...

What would you do? The people are your responsibility and the world will judge you,  so what would you do?


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:16:48 PM   
slvemike4u


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Oh Shit....will pestilence and locust also appear.

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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:29:12 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

It is not a fictional Canada, its a Canada that I know very well.

You will forgive me if I don't accept your stories at face value, given your past performance on these boards, but since you did in fact present some examples I will address them as if I believed them.
quote:

1. My son billeted with a family in Alberta. He waited a year for a knee replacement during which he was out of work and in great pain.
Given that we do not extend our health plan to foreign nationals, I would hazard a guess that the issue here was that your son's US insurers were haggling over the costs and necessity of the treatment. I say this based on the fact that my mother had both her knees replaced, one in her late 60s and the other in her early 70s and she didn't wait more than 2 months and this in one of the more rural and underfunded parts of Canada.

quote:

2. His coach's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. After the removal of a tumor she waited 18 weeks for radiation.
The best information I could find recommends such treatment within 12 weeks for best results. Could you provide the following information to make the case clear, where in Alberta. Access to radiation in rurla areas is limited by limited resources (just as it is in the US).

quote:

3. A teammate was slashed in the eye. He had to come the US, paid for by his Junior team, for surgery on his cornea that would have taken a minimum of 4 months.
This I call bullshit on. His junior team would not have had to pay for his treatment in the US, and would not have done so.


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RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:31:24 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Dude.. even for a poor older woman like me... if my son was in Canada waiting a long time for a knee surgery... I'd have him back here in a heartbeat and selling everything I had to pay for it. No friggin way would my son or daughter wait eighteen months with me knowing it!


Sorry..I wasnt clear about that. It wasnt my son that needed the knee replacement it was the head of the household of the family he billeted with.

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: HEALTH CARE - 7/21/2009 10:32:22 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
Where was his teammate from?

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 140
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