quote:

No, I didn't go from "the end does not justify the means" to anything. I ignored that totally, because you've already condemned all Republicans, and that is the issue I am addressing.

I'm really somewhat surprised at the venom you are displaying here, as - even though I often disagree with your posts - you generally are fairly balanced in your logic, or at least not as vehemently, violently angry as you are in this thread.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

No, I didn't go from "the end does not justify the means" to anything. I ignored that totally, because you've already condemned all Republicans, and that is the issue I am addressing.

I'm really somewhat surprised at the venom you are displaying here, as - even though I often disagree with your posts - you generally are fairly balanced in your logic, or at least not as vehemently, violently angry as you are in this thread.

Firm

Republicans are entitled to all the protections that jurisprudence affords them at trial. I am not even remotely trying to deprive them of any right that any other citizen has at trial. (That is more than I can say for the republican position towards others in the last eight years.)  However,   I can now go to bed assured by your diatribe that even you agree that the only defense republicans have is that the law does not apply to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

You tend to argue for the sake of argument. I argue because I am a believer.  I would agree that people like me are a danger to the people destroying this country. Get used to it.  There are a lot of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
Republicans are entitled to all the protections that jurisprudence affords them at trial. I am not even remotely trying to deprive them of any right that any other citizen has at trial. (That is more than I can say for the republican position towards others in the last eight years.)  However,   I can now go to bed assured by your diatribe that even you agree that the only defense republicans have is that the law does not apply to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
"the end does not justify the means"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
"the end does not justify the means"

You know, this little phrase deserves some attention.

In most cases in the real world, I think, we find that the ends do justify the means.

"The ends justify the means" basically means that any action you take (the "means") should be measured based on how they turn out (the "ends"). I think most people can agree with that. Ends justify means - some of them poorly, some of them well.

The alternative is the idea that only intent matters - no matter what the actual consequences are. Which is a rather scary idea.

What people mean when they say "the ends don't justify the means" is that the PARTICULAR consequences they want to talk about are not, in their opinion, worth the means taken to acquire them. Which, you know, okay. That's like, your opinion, man.

But ultimately, when we're talking about "ends" and "means", we're really talking about the distinction between intent and consequences.

So, let me ask you some serious questions:

1. If I intend to help you by letting the demons out of your skull, but in fact I wind up killing you by drilling a hole in your head, is that a good or bad thing?
2. If I intend to glorify myself, pettily crush those weaker than me, and fuel my own depraved ego, but in fact I wind up inventing the cure for cancer in the process, is that a good or bad thing?

I think we're much happier with person #2, even if person #1 seems like a nicer guy just based on intent. What's the difference? the ends - i.e., the consequences - of their actions.

And yeah, these are hokey and kinda contrived examples. Gimme a break; it's 3 in the morning. :) But seriously - people need to find a better way to frame these discussions than "the ends justify the means" - the cliche has stopped meaning what the original trope was supposed to, and it seriously muddles up any debate it gets trotted out in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Makeover Time for Sarah Palin's Brand
Will Sarah Palin Reinvent Herself?

(July 25) -- Many political pros see Sarah Palin's early exit from the Alaska governor's office as a fatal blow to any presidential aspirations she may hold for 2012. But experts in personal brand management see her resignation as a golden opportunity for Palin to reinvent herself.


http://news.aol.com/article/makeover-time-for-sarah-palins-brand/588403

quote:

Unfortunately, it's not just her, though she is the most blatant example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Please please please run Sarah Palin in 2012. Please! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I watched the video. Frum and Bay seem reasonable, but that Coulter....man I want some of whatever she's smoking!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I hadn't considered that possibility....you may be on to something.