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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 11:19:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious if those who are standing on soapboxes of perfection would stay in a relationship where they "thought" someone was cheating but couldn't prove it because their ethics put proof just beyond reach and the guy had a perfect explanation all the time?

Would you stay or leave and why?

Depends........maybe yes, maybe no. And I am not standing on a soapbox of perfection. Simply saying that two wrongs do not make a right.

Truth be told, in her position, as she described it, I would have confronted. The person's reaction to the confrontation would have told me everything I needed to know.

"It seems you have some interesting mail here that leads me to believe .............., what's the story?"........deny deny deny........."Oh really, then you won't mind sharing these emails with me will you?".........sputter sputter sputter. "Thank you, that's all I needed to know. Good bye!"

The thing is, someone brought a scenario to a public forum asking for opinions. It is apparent that different people have different morals and different standards of personal conduct. I have pretty strict ideas about things like lying, sneaking around, and stealing. Any of those will get you tossed out on your ass so fast your head will spin. Not everyone has the same mindset I do. I don't care, they are not part of my life, nor am I in a relationship with them. It wouldn't work.

But they will still get my opinion when they ask for it.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/24/2009 11:24:31 AM >

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 11:32:54 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Isn't that twisting the subject a bit and playing blame the victim? He left the mail open, that's like leaving a letter around OPEN, she did not hack his mailbox, and the fact is, he was exposed as a liar and a cheat. End of story!

You know, I would not open the letter of my partner, no way, but would he leave an open letter laying around and the worlds "I love you" would jump to my face, I would have a look at it. Would you advocate closing your eyes to obvious signs of betrayal? Then most people would possibly tell her "Why didn't you see the warning signs!"

But see...she DIDN'T just read the first opened mail, she kept on clicking OPEN and reading other mails.

Blaming the victim...yanno, I have to wonder....why is it when someone has done something wrong, we move them into victim status because someone else did something else MORE wrong first? She's a grown human being, with choices and options available to her and her own code of ethics to follow. In her code of ethics, dishonesty and cheating are not O.K. but snooping beyond the proof you have with the first letter IS O.K.. That doesn't put her code of behavior/ethics down there to the same level as his...and few have said that it does... but neither is her behavior made right by his.

I would have done the same thing! Out of selfprotection, if there is something wrong I want to go to the bottom of it. Now how about HE LEFT THE MAILS THERE FOR HER TO READ....

Actually, no he didn't. He left HIS computer on to HIS email account. She saw something in an email title that was on display and disturbed her so she clicked it open and read. Clicking on other emails was unnecessary...the first one gave her the proof she needed.
As LaTigresse said, if the D/s and the genders were reversed, I can't help wondering if this would not be an entirely different sounding thread. Hell, I will even go so far as to say leave the D/s out of it entirely and just reverse the genders.

quote:

Sorry, but if I leave my car unlocked and somebody takes my handbag, I got myself to blame.

No argument here BUT you would also have the criminal to blame. And do you honestly think the police could get away with telling you "Sorry...you left your car unlocked therefore the criminal is blameless?" Yeah...right.

quote:

Why is everybody so keen to blame her for acting in her own best interest? Would any of us not have done the same?

Because too many times that line..."I was acting in my own self-interest" can be used to cover a variety of wrong-doings. "I cheated on my wife because she won't give me sex and I am a normal healthy human being who did not want to rape his wife...so I found it elsewhere in my own best interest AND, when you stop to think about it, hers" "I cheated on my taxes because I needed the money to fund my business...everybody does it...you have to look out for number one when you are in business, you know?"

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 7/24/2009 11:38:16 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 11:47:54 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious if those who are standing on soapboxes of perfection would stay in a relationship where they "thought" someone was cheating but couldn't prove it because their ethics put proof just beyond reach and the guy had a perfect explanation all the time?

Would you stay or leave and why?

I'll bring part of an earlier post of mine forward to answer this.

so many people want to convince the OP that she did the right thing in leaving the guy. I agree. She DID do the right thing in leaving the guy.

But so many people want to say that his behavior...because it was so much worse than hers...justifies her behavior even beyond reading the first letter. Sorry, I don't feel that way. That first letter...read because of the "subject thread/title" that was on display on his screen was damning enough to cause her to wonder. Fine, she was wondering...time to confront him. People say that he would just lie to her. Fine, then let her next line be..."Alright...you say that one email is an aberration...show me the proof of that. Show me that you are being honest by showing me that there are no more emails."

Again...it comes down to choices. I don't go along with the idea that "unethical is unethical" and I did not claim that in my posts. There are degrees of ethics just as there are degrees of lying just as there are degrees of criminal activities.
beth brought up the perfect example and it is one I have used in speaking to submissives myself...to put it simply..."do I look fat in this?" Depending on many factors...whether or not she really wants the truth, mood, where we are supposed to be and when, how she really does look, etc....my answer is going to vary. I think that is true for many men who've learned through hard experience that the honest answer is NOT what is always hoped for or sought. But it depends on the degree and the context.
Do I think the OP committed an unethical act? Yes, I do. Do I think it falls within the same realm or approaches the degree of wrongness of his behavior? No, I do not even when she kept reading. But I won't give her a complete pass for the reasons I've given and for the same reasons that LaTigresse gave.

That doesn't put me on a soapbox of perfection. It puts me in a neutral corner where I can look at both partners' behavior. While I am proud to claim that I follow a professional code of ethics and a personal code of ethics, I freely admit that much of my personal code of ethics is not up to the standards that others may have. I also take pride in the fact that it is higher than many others I have met and known and dealt with.
Sort of like the OPs code of ethics...which does not allow for dishonesty and cheating (good for her) but does allow for snooping into another's private stuff.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 12:27:39 PM

RCdc

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This is Darcy

Interesting question Michael.
However, as we do not believe in the concept of perfection in a relationship I guess that I and my girl are unqualified to respond.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:02:39 PM

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Im SO sorry for what youre going through,I know how it hurts. a big hugh for you. even though you might not believe it,keep yourself busy,and soon you will see,the hurt is slowly fading away. Ive experienced the same,three times,and it is NOT funny. It doesnt matter if he promised you honesty since you agreed to you only play/look for others TOGETHER. SO he broke it. you shouldve seen the Master I first took in it, I caught him like you just did,and he tried all the possibilites to cringle himself out. He ALSO pulled the card "I can do whatever I want". but he forgot that he promised to do it TOGETHER. gotcha I just say. I also slam the door like you did and him watching-in horror!

what man with HONOUR do such a thing. He should have been HONEST with you,telling you you were not the only one. otherwise its deceit.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:06:14 PM

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Creative Dominant> okay,i see what you mean, but a yes is a yes,a no is a no, and everything in between comes from the evil itself! you cant dabble with truth. either,its truth,or its not. simple. otherwise,you in best cases get something,it was not meant to be,or something unclear,you get confusion,you get all mix max and mix max is not truth,again.

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:09:02 PM

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ps Im not meaning anything bad

what is wrong with truth why the fuck cant all those ppl that do such stuff just tell the fucking truth,should it be so hard??! do you want me,yes or no,do you want more than me,yes and no! Im like this if you tell me,honest,what you want,I might just accept because I respect your truthfulness,but if you lie, youre fucking OUT!

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:10:09 PM

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Giving you a big hugh OB, I know how much it hurts. if I could survive such things three times,you will. just wait and see.

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:15:11 PM

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it is a total difference because OB happen to see the messages on open screen. Now who can ignore messages on open screen,when you are sitting in front of it? I dont think anyone can,honestly. you cant just prevent yourself from seeing some of it. it cant be done. so dont blame OB. that short you cant avoid to see was apparently enough. I know because Ive been there myself,you just cant avoid to see some. like,you see all there is on the screen,right. when it pops up.
its true ppl have different ethics,but it says itself,you cant have an honest relationship if you do such things. so no matter your ethics,it just doesnt gonna WORK. so,back at screen one! and you cant really excuse it with it either.

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:17:11 PM

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OB,if you wanna talk youre welcome pb me I have been there myself three times. I know how much it hurts. Dont give up.

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 1:19:52 PM

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creative Dominant> no matter if you think you can avoid to see whats on the screen or could stop or not, it doesnt excuse his unmoral behaviour. you are making excuses for unmoral behaviour. he did not promise to be true,right but in fact he did promise not to look for others without her. so,in the end,he did lie. dont excuse that.

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 2:19:17 PM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious if those who are standing on soapboxes of perfection would stay in a relationship where they "thought" someone was cheating but couldn't prove it because their ethics put proof just beyond reach and the guy had a perfect explanation all the time?

Would you stay or leave and why?

I would stay simply because my sense of honour would forbid me to walk on a suspicion. However I would be keeping a jolly good watch to verify my suspicions or incontrovertible proof showing that my suspicions were wrong. If however I discovered independent proof that my suspicions were correct, there would be a serious discussion and based on the outcome I would decide my future involvement.

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 3:17:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

Interesting question Michael.
However, as we do not believe in the concept of perfection in a relationship I guess that I and my girl are unqualified to respond.

Shocking, who would of thought you wouldn't want to step up to the plate?

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 3:39:13 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MARIEL

creative Dominant> no matter if you think you can avoid to see whats on the screen or could stop or not, it doesnt excuse his unmoral behaviour. you are making excuses for unmoral behaviour. he did not promise to be true,right but in fact he did promise not to look for others without her. so,in the end,he did lie. dont excuse that.

You know, this is a perfect example of people not reading posts thoroughly OR only seeing what they want to see OR taking a post and twisting it into something it is not. Tell me, how many times do I have to post something like this: Do I think the OP committed an unethical act? Yes, I do. Do I think it falls within the same realm or approaches the degree of wrongness of his behavior? No, I do not even when she kept reading. (from post # 103)
or something like this: Blaming the victim...yanno, I have to wonder....why is it when someone has done something wrong, we move them into victim status because someone else did something else MORE wrong first? She's a grown human being, with choices and options available to her and her own code of ethics to follow. In her code of ethics, dishonesty and cheating are not O.K. but snooping beyond the proof you have with the first letter IS O.K.. That doesn't put her code of behavior/ethics down there to the same level as his...and few have said that it does... but neither is her behavior made right by his. (from post # 91)
or something like this: What is more unethical? His coming on to other submissives when he had agreed to a monogamous situation? Agreed. However, you are rationalizing her actions..."well, of COURSE once you find one, you are forgiven for searching for more...you HAVE to." No...you don't. There is another choice: You can choose not to violate your own code of ethics further and decide that the one you looked at...which you should not have OPENED to look at in the first place...is enough to confront him with.

before some folks get the point that I am NOT excusing his actions? Not allowing her or others to rationalize her wrong behavior by throwing up his behavior and saying it IS WORSE does NOT equate to my saying that he is excused!!??!!

(in reply to MARIEL)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 4:21:41 PM

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Umm... this is becoming a case of

The OP already admitted her error. Honestly, does what anyone else believe doable in their personal life really matter? I am human. I have even had moments of having a temper (enough to rip a security door off). I doubt that anyone really knows what they would do in a situation until it presents itself to them.
I for one, face each challenge as I reach it. I know what my moral code would tell me to do.. in a perfect world. I can not tell you what I would do if things are not perfect.
I can however say that beating a dead horse is smelly and makes a mess on the carpet.
Kyst

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 5:37:53 PM

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I need to clarify that I never asked anyone to justify or condone what I did. IfI could phrase it better, my question I guess would be whether I should have broken things off with him considering the fact that MY hands weren't clean in this,either.

(in reply to Missokyst)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 6:34:29 PM

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I can live with that lass..

_____________________________

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 7:16:09 PM

SimplySubmissive

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I was once in a relationship like this. What happened, eventually, was that I changed, became this suspicious person who started checking everything, all the time. I hated that I was doing these things, but was so caught up in it, couldn't seem to stop. I heard all the things the op heard, and the behavior from him was very similar. After a while, it became more about what the relationship was doing to me, not what he was doing outside of our relationship paramters. I left.
It's not something I'm proud of, and I don't blame him,(for that anyway) I should have left much sooner. I learned a lot from that experience!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 7:18:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002
my question I guess would be whether I should have broken things off with him considering the fact that MY hands weren't clean in this,either.

YES. Yes you should have broken things off with him. You don't even want to know what would have happened if that was me who found those emails.

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/24/2009 10:03:17 PM

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You have the right to draw the line in your relationship where you choose and end it if you think that line was crossed. Every relationship, even a "no limits 24/7 slave" aka internet bullshitter, is based on some mutually agreed upon terms, some often left unsaid, but best if openly communicated. Beyond the regular relationship stuff where trust is important, this guy is tying you up and swinging things at you. Trust is kind of important there.

If your terms for the relationship included monogamy, which in your mind included who he has intimate conversations with on the internet or it was obvious he was recruiting for r/t play then your trust was violated. There are plenty of submissive out there who wouldn't mind playing with multiple people or double subbing, some may even like the idea of it being a surprise or done in a way to degrade them, if you are not one of them then you are both better off going your separate ways. That said, perhaps you did not communicate that the internet thing counts in your view of fidelity.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

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