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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 1:37:03 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

Interesting question Michael.
However, as we do not believe in the concept of perfection in a relationship I guess that I and my girl are unqualified to respond.

Shocking, who would of thought you wouldn't want to step up to the plate?

Why bother asking a question that is exclusive, then be shocked when the people excluded, cannot answer?
However, if you would like to rephrase it so that those of us that didn't fit your initial criteria can respond, then, well...

the.dark.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 1:46:28 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

I need to clarify that I never asked anyone to justify or condone what I did. IfI could phrase it better, my question I guess would be whether I should have broken things off with him considering the fact that MY hands weren't clean in this,either.

You are already aware of our thoughts LadyGoddess, that you deserve integrity and honesty regardless. If it feels correct to break it off, no matter the hurt - that occurs and you can work through that - but if it feels deep down that this course of action is right for you, then you have nothing to feel guilt, bad or regretful for. If however, you want to keep trying at this relationship and it feels right, then try. Life is too full of people who regret not trying. But because you want to, not because you feel guilt, bad or regret.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 2:36:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Why bother asking a question that is exclusive, then be shocked when the people excluded, cannot answer?
However, if you would like to rephrase it so that those of us that didn't fit your initial criteria can respond, then, well...

the.dark.

You gotta love questions so flaccid they begin with an injected flawed premise, eh?

"So, have you stopped abusing your wife yet?"

The act has already be deduced by many as what it was: lucky error. Under the presumption that her reading through his e-mails was a non-permissible thing in their agreed upon relationship structure, her act was unethical and personally fortunate (as it exposed his unethical behavior).

Despite the hubbub over the situation, it's perhaps one of the more favorable conclusions to a relationship; as it gives the OP a personal insight into a flaw of her own which she can learn from while the positive result wrought from it makes the transition without painful, lingering guilt (as most people's internal scales get weighed cumulatively) much smoother.

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(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 7:18:16 AM

CreativeDominant

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Nicely said, Nihilus.

Goddess, you have to do what feels right to you. If your personal code of ethics allows for flaws not just on your part but on another's and you are a person who believes that moving forward together from a significant disruption is possible and finally, you WANT to, then do so. I sure as hell have done so...sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not...but like Darcy/dark said, it has to come from that "want to" place within you, not a place of guilt or regret.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 10:29:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i think its terribly easy to make judgements of people whilst sitting in the comfort of youre own home with nothing to lose but a bit of time.

we dont know what led her to read his emails, people assume it was out of pure noseyness, id prefer to give her he benefit of the doubt before throwing stones at a woman, who has afterall, just had to face something really unpleasant about a person she thought enough about to submit to.

i havent got time to go back and read her post again right now. but many of us have been where she was - you get a feeling when something doesnt hang right, when you know someone is holding something back or just plain lying. in the end all you want is proof so you can do the right thing for youreself.

i had to wait 4 months before i finally got the truth out of my sons dad. all that time i knew deep down, i just couldnt prove it and he just kept lying about it. its not a good place to be. sometimes its the not knowing that makes the whole thing more destructive and miserable. youve been made a fool of and youre feelings are being tramped all over.

sometimes taking care of youreself is the only 'ethical' option left open to you. sometimes a person doesnt deserve to be treated with the respect they demand from you - and thats the kicker, submitting to someone is supposed to be about trust and respect.

Do you think I don't know how it feels? I was married for 14 years to someone who lied for a year about having a woman on the side.....it was driving me crazy because, even though he kept denying it, in my heart I knew the truth, and then his own sister accidentally "outed" him & I had the confirmation I needed. Still, I did not read his mail & I had several opportunities.

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 10:57:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Isn't that twisting the subject a bit and playing blame the victim? He left the mail open, that's like leaving a letter around OPEN, she did not hack his mailbox, and the fact is, he was exposed as a liar and a cheat. End of story!

You know, I would not open the letter of my partner, no way, but would he leave an open letter laying around and the worlds "I love you" would jump to my face, I would have a look at it. Would you advocate closing your eyes to obvious signs of betrayal? Then most people would possibly tell her "Why didn't you see the warning signs!"

But see...she DIDN'T just read the first opened mail, she kept on clicking OPEN and reading other mails.

Blaming the victim...yanno, I have to wonder....why is it when someone has done something wrong, we move them into victim status because someone else did something else MORE wrong first? She's a grown human being, with choices and options available to her and her own code of ethics to follow. In her code of ethics, dishonesty and cheating are not O.K. but snooping beyond the proof you have with the first letter IS O.K.. That doesn't put her code of behavior/ethics down there to the same level as his...and few have said that it does... but neither is her behavior made right by his.

I agree with Creative Dominant. She didn't just read the OPEN e-mail, she kept OPENING and reading more. The rest of them weren't open in front of her. Maybe what he did was wrong, but what she did was wrong TOO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious if those who are standing on soapboxes of perfection would stay in a relationship where they "thought" someone was cheating but couldn't prove it because their ethics put proof just beyond reach and the guy had a perfect explanation all the time?

Would you stay or leave and why?

I am absolutely not perfect by a long shot, and would never say I am. I would leave the relationship because, no matter how many perfect answers he had, I would never be happy anyway. There is no point in staying in a relationship where I could never be happy. As a matter of fact, I've been down that road before and I was getting ready to leave before I had the proof, which was later accidentally revealed to me by his own sister.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

I need to clarify that I never asked anyone to justify or condone what I did. IfI could phrase it better, my question I guess would be whether I should have broken things off with him considering the fact that MY hands weren't clean in this,either.

You have to do what's right for you, but whether your hands were clean or not, he still did what he did & now you know what that is & you need to make your decision with that in mind.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 3:57:09 PM

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From: Mars
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I think next time instead of reading all his emails, have a friend set up a profile with a hot picture and email him if he's single and wants to play. If he says yes, kick him to the curb.

(in reply to Goddess2002)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 6:25:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So if you leave your door unlocked and go away, I can just walk in and take what I want, because it's your fault you left it open?

Cool beans! Post your address here for future reference.

the.dark.

If I leave my shades open you can look into my house. Theft is a different issue than observing. Now, opening letters that were closed is more akin to opening my unlocked front door just to peek inside. That would bother me, whereas it would only creep me out if you stood in my front lawn staring through my window.

< Message edited by HeavansKeeper -- 7/25/2009 6:48:17 PM >

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 6:42:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

I need to clarify that I never asked anyone to justify or condone what I did. IfI could phrase it better, my question I guess would be whether I should have broken things off with him considering the fact that MY hands weren't clean in this,either.

While flawed detective methodology may be grounds to dismiss a guilty criminal, the real world is not bound to the same restrictions. Even if the way you gathered information was not ethical (listening to a telephone call you're not privy to, reading other people's mail, sorting through their trash, threatening to get a confession*, planting a bug.. you know... if you're either crazy and/or Batman)... Even if the way one gets the information was terribly malicious and unethical, the information is still true. If that true information clashes with your needs, then the answer is obvious.

That said, I don't condone this sort of behavior - if at all avoidable.

*Often yields inaccurate information.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/25/2009 11:23:53 PM

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It may not have been totally ethical (but perhaps predictable) for you to read his mail. That doesn't negate the fact that his behaivior amounts to betrayal and is thus unethical first and as well.

He promised to care for and protect you. How does lying to you reflect caring and protection on his part?

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/26/2009 5:42:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gobsmack

I think next time instead of reading all his emails, have a friend set up a profile with a hot picture and email him if he's single and wants to play. If he says yes, kick him to the curb.

I disagree. If I ever found that my woman had pulled this stunt on me, I'd be furious. If the relationship's at the point where this kind of suspicion is present, it's in trouble already.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/26/2009 5:59:16 AM

lizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobsmack

I think next time instead of reading all his emails, have a friend set up a profile with a hot picture and email him if he's single and wants to play. If he says yes, kick him to the curb.

I disagree. If I ever found that my woman had pulled this stunt on me, I'd be furious. If the relationship's at the point where this kind of suspicion is present, it's in trouble already.

I disagree as well with manufacturing something to create a potential pitfall. While I can't argue that it could work what does it say about you? It says you are looking for ways to tear the person you are with down. Why spend the time/effort doing that? This just seems utterly sneaky and I don't think it's any better than reading private mail. Ick, it makes me feel dirty just imagining the concept of laying traps for the sole purpose of seeing your partner fall on his/her face. It's almost like winning some type of contest by cheating - I guess you technically have the victory but look at how you got it.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/26/2009 6:04:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gobsmack

I think next time instead of reading all his emails, have a friend set up a profile with a hot picture and email him if he's single and wants to play. If he says yes, kick him to the curb.

Excellent idea. Because if you did this to ME, and after you did not get the expected results and I found out you set me up (and I would........) it would be YOUR ass on the curb.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/26/2009 3:40:03 PM

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Gmail, actually shows you not only the title of the email but also the first sentence.

He was being secretive for a reason, and got caught, and lied about it.

That seems pretty simple to me.

If he were a good man, he would have sat her down and talked with her about it.

Ironbear, I have a daughter, and you are scaring me!!!

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/27/2009 11:38:07 PM

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I had a Dom/bf who got my password and read my mail, but couldn't admit to it. Instead he misinterpreted many things I had written. For example, I had bought a wedding dress on ebay for a part my daughter was playing in a play, and he thought I was intending to marry him. He also thought my interactions with a friend were more than they were.

Probably should have been, but my point is that because he was hunting for women and meeting them behind my back, he was distrustful enough to read my emails, thinking I didn't know.

I have also looked at another boyfriends windows they left up, which were ads on craiglist. I was very hurt and asked about it immediately. He explained it was for porn, which I understand, and imbibe in myself, and he hasn't left random windows up again. I'm pretty sure I'd be ok now if he did. This is an example of how grown ups behave regarding the internet. Open honest communication. I however feel no need to look at his emails, because I trust him. He has given no indications I should not.

One of the biggest indicators of someone being untrustworthy is that they do not trust others.

It is normal to check out windows left open, esp since you have to see them to close them. To expect anything more of a human is having expectations which are far too high for most humans to attain.

To expect people to be honest and forthright seems to be too high expectations nowadays, but it is my sticking point on a relationship of any kind. I don't hold back my opinions (obviously), my fears or my triumphs to my friends and loved ones, and I expect the same of them. Honesty is easier than secrecy and manipulation, even if the honesty hurts a little. Avoiding the pain of honesty leads to greater pain at a later date.

OP: The fact that he punished you for speaking freely, after giving permission to speak freely, is so very whacked. That should have made you leave a LONG time ago.

Sweetsub: Really? 14 years of not knowing he was a cheating lying dog? I am sorry. That is quite a waste of time. Perhaps reading his emails would have saved you some time and heartache.

Dark/Darcy: You are quick to judge and make mean remarks. I get that your relationships is ideal. We all do. And that you both have upstanding morals the rest of us clearly don't. But down here in the mire, we often run across people who are undeserving of our trust, as exemplified by their lying, manipulation and secrecy. Sometimes, we have to bite the bullet and do "naughty things" to find out a person's true nature.

Heavanskeeper: I have to admit I have made a false profile, and whooeee did it piss people off! I didn't realize how angry it would make people to find out I was not the perfect little waifish slut I had portrayed to find out if my Dom/bf at that time was cheating, and how far he would go. I did make it obvious to him eventually that it was I who was emailing him hot scenes I had written, which actually brought out another side of me, a more creative side. A more slutty side. All in all the experiment was good for me in opening me up to be more than I am, but my oh my how it pissed off random strangers!

So that's my confession. I am flawed. And I have done very naughty things. Spankings are needed!

Lizi: Yep, I'm dirty, and I cheat at cards...sometimes. SOmetimes I'm just really lucky!

< Message edited by Lostkitten3 -- 7/28/2009 12:15:35 AM >

(in reply to Lostkitten3)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/28/2009 11:33:24 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3
Dark/Darcy: You are quick to judge and make mean remarks. I get that your relationships is ideal. We all do. And that you both have upstanding morals the rest of us clearly don't. But down here in the mire, we often run across people who are undeserving of our trust, as exemplified by their lying, manipulation and secrecy. Sometimes, we have to bite the bullet and do "naughty things" to find out a person's true nature.

You just made a doody load of judgements without even knowing us. Cool huh? So if it is such a bad thing, why did you do it? Will be happy to read your answer.
Judgements rock! The human race would never be where it is or get to where it is heading without it. So keep it up, you might just become cool.

Pity you dig the jealousy thing though, not so cool.
And trust? Big old yummy feelgood word with not much substance really.

the.dark.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/28/2009 11:57:34 AM

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quote:

I am curious if those who are standing on soapboxes of perfection would stay in a relationship where they "thought" someone was cheating but couldn't prove it because their ethics put proof just beyond reach and the guy had a perfect explanation all the time?

Would you stay or leave and why?

The wording of your posts damns those who respond. No one is perfect and I have never seen anyone claim they are .. but I'm about as close as it gets, so I'll go ahead and answer your question.

Hypothetically - Suspicion is a poison and if you don't take some sort of antidote, your relationship is doomed anyway. The ethics that prevent me from reading his email are the same ones which require confrontation. If I don't trust his word, then I don't belong in a relationship with him in the first place. I don't need 'proof' that he's lying. I just need to trust that he's not. If I don't trust that he's telling the truth, (even if he is) the problems are much more deep seated than reading or not reading his email, so, I leave. Why? I don't trust him. Could be my fuck up and I'll own that, could be that I'm throwing away a great guy .. but I'm not throwing away a great relationship because if it was great, I'd be trusting him.

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RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/28/2009 8:48:26 PM

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Dark/Darcy,
Funny because we agree on other points. That is the beauty of open honest discussions. The thing is, you have been rather harsh about who is morally right and wrong on this thread. I was speaking as someone less interested in morals and more interested in the realities of life. Seem you two have been together a long time, and trust has never been an issue. As any good relationship should be. But many of us run into less upstanding characters, as the O.P. has, that do not deserve trust or respect.

Yes, judgements are necessary, otherwise in life we'd be abused regularly. There are certain people you don't leave your kids with, because you judge them unsafe.

Perhaps some of us don't have the fortitude as Bita does to say "fuck it" to any relationship we are uncomfortable in, usually for good reason.

As Bita said, if you don't trust them, there is a good reason for it. But I cannot just "go with my gut" and need some proof, some reason that is concrete to give up on a relationship.

And jealousy? not my favorite feeling, but a normal human emotion. That you have never needed to feel it is a testament to your incredible communication in your own relationship, but again, not everyone has that. Sometimes jealousy is deserved, when people are doing things they shouldn't be and ignoring people they should be paying attention to. I guess until you walk in those shoes, you won't understand the point of jealousy. I hope you never do, because it hurts. No one seeks it out.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/29/2009 12:30:51 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3

Dark/Darcy,
Funny because we agree on other points. That is the beauty of open honest discussions. The thing is, you have been rather harsh about who is morally right and wrong on this thread. I was speaking as someone less interested in morals and more interested in the realities of life. Seem you two have been together a long time, and trust has never been an issue. As any good relationship should be. But many of us run into less upstanding characters, as the O.P. has, that do not deserve trust or respect.

I didn't judge someone based on morals. I don't have them...
But I judge myself on my ethics. Ethics are purely personal and nothing to do with anyone else.
But the OP wasn't about morals. It is about ethics and that is what I was sticking to, whether other people are or not. There is a huge difference between the two and I know this is going to sound to you like I am being all judgey and blah and you may go on the defensive, but your words indicate that your concentrating on morals and don't see a difference. If and when you do, maybe you will see what I was saying in the way it was intended and not the way you took it.

the.dark.

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(in reply to Lostkitten3)

RE: Opinions,please, on ethical behavior - 7/29/2009 12:41:46 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3
And jealousy? not my favorite feeling, but a normal human emotion. That you have never needed to feel it is a testament to your incredible communication in your own relationship, but again, not everyone has that. Sometimes jealousy is deserved, when people are doing things they shouldn't be and ignoring people they should be paying attention to. I guess until you walk in those shoes, you won't understand the point of jealousy. I hope you never do, because it hurts. No one seeks it out.

Now, you are second guessing. Again, not a cool or healthy thing for an individual to do, for themselves. Personal experience taught me that a while back. You are second guessing that I haven't ever been jealous. Jealousy sucks, bigly. But it is destructive and mentally a fuck up. Jealousy is never deserved. Why? Because your giving credence to what people do and puts them in a place of power over you. Then the whole blame thing starts going and it just gets messy. No one can make you jealous. Only you can do that to yourself.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Lostkitten3)

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