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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:38:19 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

no offense..but TPE sounds like a strict vanilla family where the male says "I bring the money..I wear the pants...you listen to me wife..if not I slap your face."
So I am wondering..what makes it special...or is it the same?

Except when it -isn't-. In our household, the Keepers are of either gender, and a servant is just as likely to be contributing financially to the household as a Keeper is. There are several groups of TPE-type arrangements that -are- based on the 1950s Household model.

Dame Calla

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***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to TurboJugend)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:39:12 PM

LillyoftheVally

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Calla,

Thank you, that does make sense, I think I was sticking on some nuances of it that confused me, but I actually think I have grasped it now.

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:39:30 PM

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I was thinking about a 1950's household. Wasn't sure if it fitted in.
Thank you

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:43:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

no offense..but TPE sounds like a strict vanilla family where the male says "I bring the money..I wear the pants...you listen to me wife..if not I slap your face."
So I am wondering..what makes it special...or is it the same?

Ok, hate to sound really Un-Gorean but one of the most successful long term TPE couples I know is one in which she heads the household.

What I think makes it special is that folks enter into the arrangement because it is genuinely how they feel they want and need to live, rather than it being a pre-determined cultural expectation into which they may or may not fit so well.

Another thing that can make it special but isn't always present is when the dominant party has certain qualities and character to which the submissive aspires, but recognizes that they probably wouldn't ever achieve by self-motivation and self-discipline alone. They submit to their "master" in order to evolve toward the person they'd like to become. In that sense, these kinds of arrangements can take on some very pretty spiritual overtones reminicent of eastern student/guru relationships.

I personally think that these relationships work best when the submissive genuinely feels that they would be better off under the discipline, control and leadership of the dominant than they would under their own. If they aren't, the core reason to submit in such a profound way at all starts looking a little suspect to me, and the parties may be much better off just keeping the D/s play in the bedroom.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/28/2009 12:49:10 PM >

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:44:57 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Dame Calla

*locks the door behind you*

Aha! Now you've got to stay!

*Quirks a single brow and jangles my very own set of keys*

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:45:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Is this what you meant when you said the minute one disobeys, it is over.

I don't see a TPE dynamic as being over when disobedience happens. Only when secession happens.

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:45:36 PM

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Sounds logic. To me it seems the 1950's household also feels more like "normal" life. Eassier to accept..also to the outside world.
Would that be a reason also?

(in reply to Leonidas)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:46:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

no offense..but TPE sounds like a strict vanilla family where the male says "I bring the money..I wear the pants...you listen to me wife..if not I slap your face."
So I am wondering..what makes it special...or is it the same?

No one ever said it was exclusive to the kink, leather, Gor or whatever other kind of lifestyle you have or engage within. Having to threaten someone to get them to comply, though, isn't my idea of Mastery and if the wife wasn't thriving under that sort of treatment, hubby's walking a fine line to jail time for spousal abuse.

In any event. It's not special. It just is what it is.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to TurboJugend)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:46:40 PM

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Thank you for answering that part of my question.

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:46:57 PM

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As, I believe, has already been pointed out on this thread, TPE isn't something that generally (Or, I would argue healthfully) happens overnight.
In having a conversation with a friend on here (Who may identify himself if he wishes to comment on my comments), I once said TPE wasn't for me. He, from talking with me for quite some time and understanding my values and my dedications within relationships challenged that assertion. He then went on to cite specific traits about myself and ways that I have described interacting that would easily, across time, slide into TPE. Hell, in my vanilla marriage, if my ex- actually cared enough to assert he wanted something and put his foot down, he always got it. And, he got it because of my belief that, as my husband, that was what should be.
I think the letters TPE and the terminology is something that creates a reactionary sense in some. I know that it does in me when it lacks a context because the non-specific idea that it occurs brings thoughts of the worst case scenarios to mind (As not all people are worthy of trust or are people of fortitude) but it isn't a big leap to see how a relationship could grow into that across time and with trust and understanding plus the inclination of the parties to make it so.
Davan

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May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
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It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

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(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:48:22 PM

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quote:

In any event. It's not special. It just is what it is.

agree..as many things...but we want to keep the forum alive :-p

(in reply to DavanKael)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:53:39 PM

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i hate to be repetitive, but i still don't understand how one can call a relationship a TPE and have disobedience occuring. i am not trying to be deliberately obtuse. Isn't most disobedience the wrestling of power or authority away from the person who is supposed to be holding all of it to do something that that person hasn't given you the right, authority, or permission to do. As i previously said, i do understand having the guidelines that says, there is not one area in my life that i am restricting your authority in and i get how that can be called TPE. What i don't get and would really like to be able to understand is how does disobedience factor in, how does it affect the total part of the dynamic, because in disobedience, the disobedient person has snatched back authority or control, at least temporarily. Or are y'all saying that because there are consequences for doing so, it is still TPE?

heartfelt
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:58:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Isn't most disobedience the wrestling of power or authority away from the person who is supposed to be holding all of it to do something that that person hasn't given you the right, authority, or permission to do.

No.. it's the 'attempting' of it. That clear things up for you?

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 12:59:30 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Is this what you meant when you said the minute one disobeys, it is over.

I don't see a TPE dynamic as being over when disobedience happens. Only when secession happens.

I'd like to toss something out there, just for consideration.

I have found that, at least in our household, it is normal, even in TPE situations, for people to have 'bullish' days, where they are going to feel compelled to resist their bonds. The thing with TPE is that I, as the Keeper, get to say "You do not get to choose not to obey." Then, those of us who are Keepers are compelled to restore order to our household, and are also compelled to confirm our authority in the relationship.

There are times, however, when circumstance or attitude mean that an individual chooses to or -must- withdraw authority over certain areas. Sometimes, it is a shift in personality, and the first symptom of that shift may be increasing levels of disobedience, and an unwillingness to bow under the compulsion of my authority. The first incident would not lead me to think "This is the end of our comprehensive-authority dynamic", but persistent breaches of authority would certainly cause me to sit the individual down and discuss what is going on and determine whether xhe has, in fact, tacitly revoked hir yielding to our authority, either in part or in the whole.

In the same way, sometimes aspects of a submissive individual's life no longer are compatible with comprehensive authority dynamics. Perhaps there is something like, say, a sick parent, or a job that requires certain limitations on time or requires the servant to move, or a change of heart means that xhe is no longer comfortable yielding up authority someplace. Sometimes, the only 'symptom' of this change of heart or the stresses that are straining the comprehensive authority agreement are recurring instances of 'acting out' or disobedience.

It is -my- responsibility, as the one holding the authority, to recognize when simple discipline or punishment is going to be required to restore authority, and when there may be some underlying factor that would, because of its existence, dissolve the foundations of comprehensive authority... do I enforce, or do I release? Not every act of disobedience marks the end of a comprehensive authority dynamic, but it takes more than a little knowledge of the servant in question and the circumstances as they change over time to figure out which aspect is going to be the way to go. (And sometimes, we screw it up -- but we are only human, on both sides of the kneel, and screwing it up doesn't mean it didn't, shouldn't, or can't exist, either.)

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/28/2009 1:00:00 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 1:03:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Isn't most disobedience the wrestling of power or authority away from the person who is supposed to be holding all of it to do something that that person hasn't given you the right, authority, or permission to do.

No.. it's the 'attempting' of it. That clear things up for you?

Do you mean like will He let me take this power/authority back? and if He doesn't then the total authority/power exchange holds. And if He does allow it, then the total authority/power exchange does not, because He allowed you (the generic you) to keep that power or authority? So that the only thing that makes it total versus non-total is is there an area in my life that i won't allow him authority over?

And yes if the above statement (meaning the previous paragraph that i typed) is true to the definition of TPE, then yes it cleared it up immensely.

heartfelt

*edited for clarity sake

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 7/28/2009 1:06:02 PM >

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 1:03:26 PM

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~ Fast Question ~

Do all of you put as much effort in your relationships as you do in defending, or attacking, specific word references or terms that define it?

~ Fast Reply ~

We don't consider what we have as an example of a 'REAL TPE' life.
We don't have a 'Total' relationship; since I do not require, and give, beth permission to breath in AND out.
We do assign 'Power' to one person in the relationship - ME; however the decisions resulting from that power are made based upon how they serve the relationship not either individual.
We never 'Exchange' anything; unless fluids are considered.
We are NOT 'real' if the majority of internet ramblings represent reality.
We use words such as limits, Master, slave, 24/7, TPE as shortcuts to expedite outsiders understanding of our relationship in the Macro. They do not represent us, and you'll get a weak debate if we didn't meet your definition expectations when we met. I like beth's fingers, arms, and legs right where they are and would never consider cutting one off with a chainsaw just to prove I have a no limits, 24/7, slave in a TPE relationship.
We simply have a relationship formed after being thrown together as a result of a set of improbable circumstances. It is so much FUN!

Who can say if it is forever? Although our dynamic doesn't allow for an 'no'; maybe the day will come when beth gets tired of living under her responsibilities. Maybe one day she'll tire of all this nonsense, protocol, and rules; and says "good-bye". Of course she has the ability to do so. Life only provides the opportunity for failure. Death is the only absolute proof that our 'TPE', Master/slave, 24/7, relationship would last. To that end, we've already purchased an Urn where either our commingled ashes will reside or our "Contract" (another reference to our silliness). We've already had it appropriately engraved for either eventual outcome - "Merc & beth - Told you so!"

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 1:04:50 PM

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quote:

(And sometimes, we screw it up -- but we are only human, on both sides of the kneel, and screwing it up doesn't mean it didn't, shouldn't, or can't exist, either.)

that give it a nice human touch afther all strictness...
nice to read about both sides to TPE

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 1:05:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

i hate to be repetitive, but i still don't understand how one can call a relationship a TPE and have disobedience occuring. i am not trying to be deliberately obtuse. Isn't most disobedience the wrestling of power or authority away from the person who is supposed to be holding all of it to do something that that person hasn't given you the right, authority, or permission to do. As i previously said, i do understand having the guidelines that says, there is not one area in my life that i am restricting your authority in and i get how that can be called TPE. What i don't get and would really like to be able to understand is how does disobedience factor in, how does it affect the total part of the dynamic, because in disobedience, the disobedient person has snatched back authority or control, at least temporarily. Or are y'all saying that because there are consequences for doing so, it is still TPE?

heartfelt
heartfelt

Hmmmm, not sure if this assertion helps or complicates but my answer is that no one and nothing is imperfect. If we're talking about an occasional disobedience or rift, that's within my assertion. If it's a matter of habit, I'd say it's not TPE. I'd also say it's about intent and what's in the hearts and minds of those involved.
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 1:09:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Question ~

Do all of you put as much effort in your relationships as you do in defending, or attacking, specific word references or terms that define it?

~ Fast Reply ~

We don't consider what we have as an example of a 'REAL TPE' life.
We don't have a 'Total' relationship; since I do not require, and give, beth permission to breath in AND out.
We do assign 'Power' to one person in the relationship - ME; however the decisions resulting from that power are made based upon how they serve the relationship not either individual.
We never 'Exchange' anything; unless fluids are considered.
We are NOT 'real' if the majority of internet ramblings represent reality.
We use words such as limits, Master, slave, 24/7, TPE as shortcuts to expedite outsiders understanding of our relationship in the Macro. They do not represent us, and you'll get a weak debate if we didn't meet your definition expectations when we met. I like beth's fingers, arms, and legs right where they are and would never consider cutting one off with a chainsaw just to prove I have a no limits, 24/7, slave in a TPE relationship.
We simply have a relationship formed after being thrown together as a result of a set of improbable circumstances. It is so much FUN!

Who can say if it is forever? Although our dynamic doesn't allow for an 'no'; maybe the day will come when beth gets tired of living under her responsibilities. Maybe one day she'll tire of all this nonsense, protocol, and rules; and says "good-bye". Of course she has the ability to do so. Life only provides the opportunity for failure. Death is the only absolute proof that our 'TPE', Master/slave, 24/7, relationship would last. To that end, we've already purchased an Urn where either our commingled ashes will reside or our "Contract" (another reference to our silliness). We've already had it appropriately engraved for either eventual outcome - "Merc & beth - Told you so!"

Merc,
I am really glad that you reconsidered your retirement from posting.
What an awesome real way of conveying what are so often discussed as only theoreticals. :>
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/28/2009 1:14:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

As I have said over and over, I think a talented dominant can have an amazing amount of control but the total part is at best rather rare and when it is present in a relationship over 6-10 years old, I even believe it.

You are ... decrying TPE as non-existent for humans because of it.

Where in that sentence do you see me as saying TPE is non existent? What part of "when it is present in a relationship over 6-10 years old, I even believe it" means anything other than I believe it exists? Its a bit difficult to have a discussion when I make a rather clear statement and you see the complete opposite in it.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

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