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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:26:26 PM

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quote:

I don't need someone small so I feel big and I don't need to bind someone to me so they can't escape.

But you need someone assertive and dominant in order to feel Dominant. You're willing to go as far as to take a woman, ready, willing, able and confident in submitting and first, quoting you; "ensure she was fully capable of exerting authority, only then would I consider her worthy of becoming my slave..."

Why not consider the strength it takes to confidently pronounce yourself a 'slave'? To me that is an indication of power and strength. A strength to be to draw upon if the 'slave' wanted and/or needed to "escape"?

Trust me, my good friend, strength, confidence, and self assurity are not mutually exclusive to anyone taking on not only the label but the persona of 'slave' within a relationship. Granted - it is not always the case and there is no way I am representing absolutes. However, strictly based upon society perceptions, prejudice, and gender pressure, it's a LOT harder to live proudly under the label 'slave' or 'submissive' versus 'Dominant' or 'Master'. Making those strong enough to do so the exact type of strong partner you seek. Our society has made the dominant assertive woman the gender 'ideal'. The submissive, stay at home subjugated woman, is often pitied. Which takes more "strength" to proudly self proclaim?

quote:

Merc, I would much rather have this discussion poolside with a cold beer.

Funny thing is I was trying to convey this thought in Darcyandthedark's thread about going to a Munch at a private residence. This is the exact type of discussion that usually takes place at our informal house 'Munches'. Granted - it's much more fun with beth walking around naked, or Beach's toy modeling the latest in CBT wear; but similarly nothing is solved and no minds are changed. It's a lot less hostile when you can see and hear the embodiment of sarcasm versus just reading it. It is a GREAT 'community'.

Michael - The gate is always open.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 4:16:42 PM

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Jumping in 361 posts in and not really knowing what the hell this thread is really about.

Michael, I kind of understand where you are coming from in that thing inside you that goes "Yeah, THIS is what I want" what confuses me is the often unnecessarily complex nature those relationships take. To me I like to take that someone WANTS to be with me and find JOY in that, I have few expectation on WHY they find joy in being with me just that they do. That being said I find the idea of a Power Struggle opposing to the idea of a Power Dynamic, unless the Power Struggle IS the Dynamic you want and if that is the case I wonder what purpose that would serve.

The way I have understood what you want is that you want a woman to fight their surrender to you, you want them to be overpowered by your Dominance and eventually give in. This in my opinion is a Power Struggle. I get the concept and how rock hard it makes someone when someone just caves to their counterance, but the question is how long could this give and take last before something gives?

Case in Point, Girl is very Independent and needs nothing from anyone, Boy consistantly shows his desire to and ability to allow Girl to be dependant on Him, Girl Resists and Boy continues, Eventually girl depends on Boy for something. Boy is Happy, Girl relaxes a little. Girl eventually takes back Independance as it is Her Natural State, Boy goes back to wanting her to be dependant on Him, The cycle either continues or the Girl gives complete dependance over to Boy and Boy no longer gets the Overpowering he desires and gets Bored.

What you describe is MADDENING to me. If it works for you More power to you but I see it as being an excersize in futility.

See I like it when a woman gives into my control and offers her obedience but once had and I get what I want I now need to continue to find reasons to find the passion and spark in the relationship, I choose to do that with the interpersonal relationship and leave the STRUCTURE of the relationship alone. I just don't like having my celing comeing down on top of me because I kept playing with the maing support structure.

Steel

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 4:18:16 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Dame Calla -- i guess this is what i am not getting from people as many think there is UNHAPPINESS, MISERY or CAPTIVITY OR now i even saw FEAR in what some are speaking about with regard to TPE. I honestly am at a loss where they come up with this idea lol.

angel

*nods* I hear you. Just for the record, the individuals we've had in our household who have yielded up comprehensive authority to House Bladewing Keepers have done so out of a sense of desire, joy, peace, and have indicated, across the board, that they enjoyed personal growth from the process--and so did I and the other Keepers. It has been a -blast-, and that's the -only- reason to stay with it... when it brings joy and fulfillment to the household. Bitter, angry, scared, miserable people do -not- make for a happy or functional household -- why would any Keeper want to hang on to someone who was clearly desperate to be -out- of the life that xhe was living?

I won't say that fear has no place in a dynamic. Certainly, as a needle, blood, cutting and fire-play aficionado, and as an Irish/Sicilian woman with a slow-to-blow-but -very- impressive-once-you've-set-me-off temper, I would never say that nobody in our household has ever been afraid of me, and honestly, I've been told by some that that thrill of fear that I can incite can be pretty -enticing- on the rare occasions that I drag it out -- but honestly, if they're so afraid that they can't stand being around me, I would certainly find them a therapist to help them through the unintended trauma and send them on their way.

This is why I've emphasized, through this whole discussion, that comprehensive-authority dynamics (or TPE, if you prefer) are situational-- they exist as long as the dynamic functions, and when it no longer functions, whether or not we desire to -force- the issue, it ends.

Even Leonidas, whose manner of conditioning a servant's (slave's) acknowledgment of her need to be -in- the relationship extends beyond where I would be willing to go, makes it clear that this is -not- about forcing someone who clearly doesn't want to be there... who leaves and does -not- come back... to be in the relationship. Instead, it is about helping a woman who may not -realize- just how much she craves being completely owned to realize, of her own accord, that being in this relationship is exactly where she wants to be -- to the point where she realizes, of her own accord, that leaving is no longer an option she would even allow to bubble to the top of her mind.

I agree with DesFTP's earlier comment that she thinks that the use of the acronym TPE, and the discussion of 'total' sets off a visceral reaction -- and I suspect that, for some people, no matter how reasonable the reality is, they will never get past the fear in their own -minds- of something that is clearly such a powerful example of surrender.

These kinds of dynamics aren't for everyone, it's true. In fact, out of the 30-some servants we've had through the house, only ~10%, give or take, ended up going in that direction, and even -they- didn't stay in that space for years on end, without reprieve. Life happens, and nothing is permanent. We've been fortunate that we put a 'step-down' process in effect -long- before I came into the House, so those who found that they wanted to be part of what we were, but who weren't ok with yielding comprehensive authority any longer weren't cut off from the family just on that account... and we've always had a path in place for those who discover that their time in yielding was really a road to leadership, whether they knew it when they started (as I did) or not. But the whole thing is, any relationship that is going to be healthy and is going to make for a functional household has to come from a place where, most of the time, the people involved are fulfilled, and no matter -what- your relationship is, that is the bottom line, whether you have a label for it, or just freestyle.

Being commanding and authoritative does -not- mean trapping someone in a life they hate. Compelling is not denial of will. Leading is not blindfolding and dragging. Keeping (Owning) is not destroying, crushing, and breaking... and abject, utter servitude may be the most beautiful, graceful, and vibrant thing I have ever had the pleasure of enjoying in my life -- why would I -ever- desecrate such beauty by attempting to hold someone there who didn't want to be there.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/29/2009 4:30:12 PM >

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 4:42:32 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

How could I be so stupid to think in a comprehensive-authority dynamic I could force someone to change, how utterly stupid of me. Clearly I am not cut out to be allowed near something as powerful as TPE because, god forbid, I might actually want to exercise some fucking authority.

You people crack me the fuck up. What's next, only assholes make women lose weight, get plastic surgery, fuck other men, or do anything the "powerless" woman doesn't want?

I am surprised people don't get dizzy reading these threads considering some of the mental gymnastics going on.

You know, Michael, you're right... truly, you're absolutely right. If a woman yielded comprehensive authority to you, then you'd be perfectly within your rights to train her into a dominant state, and then attempt to compel her to yield to you. It doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't -have- to. The only people it has to make sense to are you and the person you're in the dynamic with.

I was out of line. Though I -don't- grasp why you'd want to change her essential nature, it -is- within the realm of comprehensive-authority relationships to allow you to do so, and so I retract my smart-ass remark.

Dame Calla

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 4:46:43 PM

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quote:

Dame Calla commented:
I agree with DesFTP's earlier comment that she thinks that the use of the acronym TPE, and the discussion of 'total' sets off a visceral reaction -- and I suspect that, for some people, no matter how reasonable the reality is, they will never get past the fear in their own -minds- of something that is clearly such a powerful example of surrender.

You know, I often think that these things only get complicated in theory. At least I know in my house that none of this is all that complicated. Nobody's making anybody do anything. It's all pretty straight forward. Carol likes pleasing me and it turns out that a good way to do that is by obeying me. I'm fine with leadership positions and don't mind the burdens that go along with that. It's not really any more complicated.

But Carol & I have the advantage of looking at an actual instantiation of the theory. We are not speculating about everything that might happen in some theoretical master/slave relationship. We only need to worry about what's going to happen in OUR relationship... whatever it is.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 4:49:24 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

You know, I often think that these things only get complicated in theory. At least I know in my house that none of this is all that complicated. Nobody's making anybody do anything. It's all pretty straight forward. Carol likes pleasing me and it turns out that a good way to do that is by obeying me. I'm fine with leadership positions and don't mind the burdens that go along with that. It's not really any more complicated.

But Carol & I have the advantage of looking at an actual instantiation of the theory. We are not speculating about everything that might happen in some theoretical master/slave relationship. We only need to worry about what's going to happen in OUR relationship... whatever it is.

I think you're right, Jeff. Despite our love of protocol, it never seemed quite so complicated here at home. *chuckles* But it certainly gets all wound up in theorizing, doesn't it?

Calla

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 4:58:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

How could I be so stupid to think in a comprehensive-authority dynamic I could force someone to change, how utterly stupid of me. Clearly I am not cut out to be allowed near something as powerful as TPE because, god forbid, I might actually want to exercise some fucking authority.

You people crack me the fuck up. What's next, only assholes make women lose weight, get plastic surgery, fuck other men, or do anything the "powerless" woman doesn't want?

I am surprised people don't get dizzy reading these threads considering some of the mental gymnastics going on.

You know, Michael, you're right... truly, you're absolutely right. If a woman yielded comprehensive authority to you, then you'd be perfectly within your rights to train her into a dominant state, and then attempt to compel her to yield to you. It doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't -have- to. The only people it has to make sense to are you and the person you're in the dynamic with.

I was out of line. Though I -don't- grasp why you'd want to change her essential nature, it -is- within the realm of comprehensive-authority relationships to allow you to do so, and so I retract my smart-ass remark.

Dame Calla

he does have that right, if he so chooses. she would be his slave. what you described is what i believe i left. for me, and this is soley my experience, it left me feeling utterly unwanted, unneeded, just someone in the way till an orgasm was needed. i crumbled under that kind of relationship.

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 5:14:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

The way I have understood what you want is that you want a woman to fight their surrender to you, you want them to be overpowered by your Dominance and eventually give in. This in my opinion is a Power Struggle. I get the concept and how rock hard it makes someone when someone just caves to their counterance, but the question is how long could this give and take last before something gives?

Steel

In this paragraph and in the sentence I highlighted I believe we see the crux in where some struggle with the concept of TPE. However, I could also point out that in the Gor Novels, we so oft see the captured Earth Girl doing just6 that, fighting against her chains and fearful of being branded. I wonder how many who have read such things in what ever novel they choose, be it Gor or Black Lace etc, fine this so erotic and to so0me adolescent male minds believe that this is what women really want.. Stone the crows, it would be great to find such a slave but I dare say they are both rather rare and not for everyone. In fact I'd hazard a guess and say it just takes the right two people to connect whop enjoy rough sex and there you have it if the girl is submissive inclined

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 8:10:54 PM

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There are certain techniques within a process that is used. the specific one being mentioned I have not used, but the enforcement of my will and word to a degree that she knows if she steps out the door, that there is no going back. Outside the door is the void, amira no longer exists. Outside the door is the life she left, the left that was so chaotic it turned her into a anxious and depressed person. Outside that door is everything that has made her miserable. Once outside that door, the lock clicks. This is not something that is actively reinforced, but subtly reinforced by comparison of the positive things she receives staying inside that door.

Inside the door is structure. Inside the door is the lack of anxiety from making decisions. Inside the door she is protected from her inability to tell friends and family "NO", when they take advantage of her. Inside that door is love for a creature that is beautiful when she is obedient and pleasing. Inside that door is true concern for property that I wish to improve.

There are many essays written on this from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to Internal Enslavement.

I do not use failure and humiliation. Those would damage the self esteem of my property, and make her less valuable. Some may use that technique, but I have found that it creates some of it's own problems. Instead, consider that I create an addiction, if you want to use a crude and negative comparison.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Both Leonidas and Orion indicated that these were actual tactics that they actually use. I can take directly from what was written there the outcome of "inability", "failure" and "humiliation" which together form captivity (defined as inability to leave). For me, at least, such things would also mean "unhappiness" if not misery. How many people are actually content with feeling incompetent, humiliated, and trapped?

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 8:34:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Both Leonidas and Orion indicated that these were actual tactics that they actually use. I can take directly from what was written there the outcome of "inability", "failure" and "humiliation" which together form captivity (defined as inability to leave). For me, at least, such things would also mean "unhappiness" if not misery. How many people are actually content with feeling incompetent, humiliated, and trapped?

Ok, first of all I did not say that I employ this tactic. In fact, I was pretty careful to say that I am not going to comment on the ethics of this tactic and similar tactics in this forum. You were wondering whether the inability to exit slavery being described was just another way of describing the attachment that you and your spouse feel for each other. The purpose of my post was to point out that no, it may be something else.

I think you are jumping to the conclusion that someone upon whom these techniques had been employed would end up with feelings of inabilty and failure all of the time. Again, that's not what I said, and that has not been my observation. Those feelings, as I said, end up being chained (like a chain reaction) to thoughts of leaving. Sort of like some people have feelings of failure and incompetence chained to opening a box from Ikea and looking at the instructions, especially if they have had a few such experiences. They don't feel like they are about to fail all the time, only when they are about to try to assemble swedish furniture. It is in fact possible to feel empowered, successful, etc. in most contexts, and like you can't help but fail in others.

Come on folks, my mouth is not large enough for you to keep putting words in it.

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Leonidas

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 11:04:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Hence, you pick a dominant who thrives on imposing tight and rigid control and who does so because he not only understands that you are influenced easily by others...he accepts it. He may even, if you want to change it, be willing to take that "flaw" and guide you to a place in which you are not so easily influenced by others while still being influenced easily by him.

So...a more controlling dominant would be more compatible with you than one who is laid back.

I LOVE that you used the phrase "he accepts it." That he accepts my nature is huge with me. I have been the therapy route to try to "fix" me before. It was a long and miserable process. At the end of it, I moved forward not an inch, was really uncomfortable and felt unnatural throughout, and came out on the other side feeling that there was something definately wrong with me that was totally unfixable. These days, I just accept that I am not a free person by nature. Any attempts to turn me into a free person would be like rewiring a boom-box into a laser cannon. Maybe it could be done ... maybe ... but the process would be so time consuming and expensive that you'd have been better off accepting that the boom-box is a boom-box and buying yourself a laser cannon.

I function on my own. I mean, I don't wither up and die without a man in my life. I get up and go to work, eat, clean house, and so on. It's just that without someone to anchor myself to and guide me, I don't actually go anywhere or do anything. I have no internal motivation to better myself or my situation in any way at all, not financially, spiritually, educationally, mentally ... nothing. I just float along getting sucked up into one person's orbit or another's until someone decides to keep me. It is soooooo much easier (more natural and comfortable) to orbit someone than to try to stand alone.

Master recognized that I suck as a free person. He works to be the strongest gravitational pull in my galaxy to keep me to him. I am happy and content. My life is better now than it ever has been. While on the one hand, he's got it good in that he has an easy slave. I don't fight him at all. I do what he wants with just a word or a gesture from him. I bring no drama, no jealousy, no expectations. On the other hand, it can really suck to be him. I could be swept into another orbit much easier than most women. If he ever wants a "real" relationship with someone who would challenge him or be any sort of equal to him, he knows I can never be that person.

In regards to the bolded portion of your quote, I have noticed this occuring, but had always attributed it to "I know where my bread is buttered." It had not really occured to me that he was purposefully changing my personality in that way, but perhaps it is so. It is much easier for me to resist a gravitational pull for a period of time than it has been in the past.

I agree that compatibility is a major deal, probably the single most important in many relationships. Most men (I suspect) would have no desire to have to deal with a girl he could not actually trust. I don't think my Master trusts me as far as he can throw me for more than short bursts of time. While he and I are very compatible, it took a lot of digging and investigation into me and my nature on his part to understand me. I am grateful that he accepts me and holds me to him under his terms.

Respectfully,

amy

P.S. I know it sounds like I am some sort of robot, but I'm really not. I am intelligent, witty and have a great sense of humor. While I would say that I am a doormat, I would not say that I am a robot. I am a doormat with personality ;)

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 12:10:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Ok, first of all I did not say that I employ this tactic. In fact, I was pretty careful to say that I am not going to comment on the ethics of this tactic and similar tactics in this forum. You were wondering whether the inability to exit slavery being described was just another way of describing the attachment that you and your spouse feel for each other. The purpose of my post was to point out that no, it may be something else.

Fair enough. Yes, I did infer (actually from a subsequent post as I remember) that you actually would consider doing these things... and frankly even if I incorrectly pointed to you individually (for which I apologize), the point of my answer remains the same to barelynangel. That comment was where such thoughts came in.

quote:

I think you are jumping to the conclusion that someone upon whom these techniques had been employed would end up with feelings of inabilty and failure all of the time.

Nope, I didn't say or mean that. I perfectly well get it that the rest of the overall situation might be wonderful. That doesn't change my opinion about the deliberate introduction of flaws, vulnerabilities, and fail conditions. Again, it is fruitless to get into a debate in a venue like this about whether this is a good idea or not so I'll avoid it.

quote:

Come on folks, my mouth is not large enough for you to keep putting words in it.

No seriously.. not my intent. I generally like your posting Leonidas. To the best of my knowledge, I misinterpreted one point and just plain don't agree with another.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Leonidas)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 1:19:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

No seriously.. not my intent. I generally like your posting Leonidas. To the best of my knowledge, I misinterpreted one point and just plain don't agree with another.

I like what I've read of your posts too. You do genuinely seem to speak from a base of experience, which I do respect a great deal. That wasn't aimed at you specifically. A couple of folks made the same mistake.

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Leonidas

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 2:25:22 PM

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Surely all of this is immaterial as the extent to which we enjoy free will in our society means that whatever you decide to do in a relationship is what you desire and nothing more. Having categories into which relationships fall is presumably redundant as one can simply find a partner that enjoys the same things as you and practice them to your hearts content. Without knocking anyone here is it not a matter of ego to label a relationship simply to demonstrate to others your ''credentials''?

(in reply to Leonidas)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 2:26:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I like what I've read of your posts too. You do genuinely seem to speak from a base of experience, which I do respect a great deal. That wasn't aimed at you specifically. A couple of folks made the same mistake.

*laughs* experience? moi? This is the guy who didn't even know BDSM existed outside of porn until 2 years ago. I don't think I speak from any significant experience. I just didn't get the frontal lobotomy when I put the collar on Carol -- tough economic times you know and those damned surgeries are freakin expensive. I'm hoping to have that scheduled for next spring.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Leonidas)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 5:12:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*laughs* experience? moi? This is the guy who didn't even know BDSM existed outside of porn until 2 years ago. I don't think I speak from any significant experience. I just didn't get the frontal lobotomy when I put the collar on Carol -- tough economic times you know and those damned surgeries are freakin expensive. I'm hoping to have that scheduled for next spring.

It's not so much the length of experience. You do talk more about what you have experienced than your theories, though. It's a good thing to be able to differentiate beween what you know, and what you think.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 5:38:49 PM

sweetgirlserves

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

There are certain techniques within a process that is used. the specific one being mentioned I have not used, but the enforcement of my will and word to a degree that she knows if she steps out the door, that there is no going back. Outside the door is the void, amira no longer exists. Outside the door is the life she left, the left that was so chaotic it turned her into a anxious and depressed person. Outside that door is everything that has made her miserable. Once outside that door, the lock clicks. This is not something that is actively reinforced, but subtly reinforced by comparison of the positive things she receives staying inside that door.

Inside the door is structure. Inside the door is the lack of anxiety from making decisions. Inside the door she is protected from her inability to tell friends and family "NO", when they take advantage of her. Inside that door is love for a creature that is beautiful when she is obedient and pleasing. Inside that door is true concern for property that I wish to improve.

There are many essays written on this from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to Internal Enslavement.

I do not use failure and humiliation. Those would damage the self esteem of my property, and make her less valuable. Some may use that technique, but I have found that it creates some of it's own problems. Instead, consider that I create an addiction, if you want to use a crude and negative comparison.

The problem with this is that, 'amira', 'amani', amookaberry'... whatever you want to name her... is a girl that is a slave... and she existed before you, she exists with you, and she will continue to exist long after you. Maybe no one will call her amira anymore (or whatever name a generic master assigns to a generic slave), but the truth of who she is and what she is doesn't change if and when she is no longer with you. A slave who leaves her Master will seek out another Master.

Trying to brainwash someone to believe that they are only who they are because they are with you (any generic 'you'... not 'you' personally Orion) is being very untruthful with that person.

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 7/30/2009 5:47:09 PM >

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 6:53:37 PM

Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

The problem with this is that, 'amira', 'amani', amookaberry'... whatever you want to name her... is a girl that is a slave... and she existed before you, she exists with you, and she will continue to exist long after you. Maybe no one will call her amira anymore (or whatever name a generic master assigns to a generic slave), but the truth of who she is and what she is doesn't change if and when she is no longer with you. A slave who leaves her Master will seek out another Master.

Trying to brainwash someone to believe that they are only who they are because they are with you (any generic 'you'... not 'you' personally Orion) is being very untruthful with that person.

Of course she continues to exist, and of course her nature remains unchanged, but there are two (or 10 million) ways of using the word slave. To some (in fact, to pretty much any non-Gorean speaker of English), slaves are people who are owned. Take away the owner/ownership, and *poof* there is no slavery, and amira is merely a girl with slave nature or slave potential.

Not that this thread needs further complications. Just sayin'.

< Message edited by sravaka -- 7/30/2009 6:55:56 PM >

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Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 11:04:01 PM

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Of course she continues to exist, and of course her nature remains unchanged, but there are two (or 10 million) ways of using the word slave. To some (in fact, to pretty much any non-Gorean speaker of English), slaves are people who are owned. Take away the owner/ownership, and *poof* there is no slavery, and amira is merely a girl with slave nature or slave potential.

Not that this thread needs further complications. Just sayin'.

What a load of tripe! What's with the Non-Gorean BS. Nothing there (in red) that any Gorean Lifestyler would disagree with... This is indeed a good laugh, best you contact your village they are missing the village idiot. Are you just another uninformed person enjoying taking a swipe at those in the Gorean Lifestyles?

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/30/2009 11:05:36 PM >

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(in reply to sravaka)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/30/2009 11:55:50 PM

Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

What a load of tripe! What's with the Non-Gorean BS. Nothing there (in red) that any Gorean Lifestyler would disagree with... This is indeed a good laugh, best you contact your village they are missing the village idiot. Are you just another uninformed person enjoying taking a swipe at those in the Gorean Lifestyles?

Aaargh.

My apologies, IronBear. I meant no harm by that insertion, truly. Though I am not Gorean myself, I am quite fond of the Gor forum here, and have learned a great deal from those who post there (from their posts there and on this side too.)

But, having read rather a lot (by god, she's even read some of the dreaded books!), I am conscious that many do in fact use the word slave in a way that I would not, particularly the self-identified slaves themselves. There is nothing wrong with that if one wishes to indicate that one does not/cannot identify as Free in a Gorean context, irrespective of being (un)owned. I imagine this distinction is what provoked sgs above. But I also think that being owned or not is also a key distinction, and determines whether or not the label is applicable for 99% of the (watch for it) non-Goreans who use the term. (Yes, I know there are exceptions. :::waves to Beth of Mercnbeth::: another whose thoughts on slavery I always find extraordinarily valuable and enlightening.)

Whether I am an idiot, you may judge as you see fit. Knock yourself out.

_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to IronBear)

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