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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:07:29 PM

LillyoftheVally

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
i would find myself truly disgusted with such a Man who was that needy of the woman he called slave to achieve that concept of their relationship.

Angel,

I am wondering from this above point then does it only extend to men that you would be disgusted. The implication here seems to be that it is ok for a woman to need a man but not ok for a man to need a woman, isn't that therefore being as guilty as Micheal for deciding what others should need? Also is man synonymous with Mastery to you? Sorry I don't mean to sound rude, I am genuinely interested.

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Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:17:37 PM

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There is a weird atmosphere in this topic...but when you dig deep..and take away the irritations it is very interesting.

not pointed at you LotV

< Message edited by TurboJugend -- 7/29/2009 2:18:09 PM >

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:22:01 PM

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While I admitt to not reading the whole thread but my two cents if I may,I for one wouldn't want a slave to remain with me out of fear or to have so much mind control that she couldn't do jack shit without my permission,I want slaves with a little get up and go, one that can take care of my business if I am away for a few days..granted some women seeks this kind of control and those kind aren"t for me,diane and I have three very self sufficent women wearing our collar..bounty

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:23:48 PM

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Y'know, I have a friend here in CM who rarely posts but absorbs most things posted of any interest to her. This lass is employed at senior management level in a sensitive occupation where she shoulders enormous responsibilities daily. At home she is happily a slave of her master/Husband. Now this is a slave who happily raised a couiple of ums from a first marriage, put them through University and even completed bioth her Masters and Doctorial Degrees. I've known her for over thirty years and visited with her when in the US. She functions very well indeed prior to being collared. It was her desire to be owned not her need. No desperation or anything like that, but rather just a realization that this was where she wanted to be. Both she and her Husband are professionals and thus busy and respect each other's abilities, strengths and weaknesses. No mind games or trying to mould the other into something natural, but rather mutual support and encouragement to each try to attempt to be what they could be as human beings. Both, I know would tell you that their M/s dynamic which is TPE is another part of what makes them both far better and happier people. Again they worked on what was needed for their dynamic and both worked jolly hard to develop what they have. I learned an awfull lot from both of them.

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:30:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

While I admitt to not reading the whole thread but my two cents if I may,I for one wouldn't want a slave to remain with me out of fear or to have so much mind control that she couldn't do jack shit without my permission,I want slaves with a little get up and go, one that can take care of my business if I am away for a few days..granted some women seeks this kind of control and those kind aren"t for me,diane and I have three very self sufficent women wearing our collar..bounty

i didnt stay with him out of fear.. not that kind of fear. my fear was being without him. i threw temper tantrums, tried to manipulate, wanted my way as the only way, threatened to leave. and when i tried, it hit me. i moved out.... i tried to leave.... and i found myself begging to be able to return. eventually the desire to leave left. why? because it got me no where. but, it proved his point. that i needed him more than he needed me. and it was true. he knew me better than i knew myself.

his confidence, his refusal to be manipulated by me, he calm assurance in my reactions... all that and more were intoxicating. i could function on my own, could before i met him. when with him, i could and did make decisions, all the time. his desires were always taken into consideration, and sometimes my decisions met with his displeasure. but they were still my decisions. his advice i would seek on many things. but ultimately, as he said, they were my decisions to make.

he encouraged me to be better as a person. and that encouragement pushed me harder to my knees. and he knew exactly what he was doing, binding me to his will.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:34:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Y'know, I have a friend here in CM who rarely posts but absorbs most things posted of any interest to her. This lass is employed at senior management level in a sensitive occupation where she shoulders enormous responsibilities daily. At home she is happily a slave of her master/Husband. Now this is a slave who happily raised a couiple of ums from a first marriage, put them through University and even completed bioth her Masters and Doctorial Degrees. I've known her for over thirty years and visited with her when in the US. She functions very well indeed prior to being collared. It was her desire to be owned not her need. No desperation or anything like that, but rather just a realization that this was where she wanted to be. Both she and her Husband are professionals and thus busy and respect each other's abilities, strengths and weaknesses. No mind games or trying to mould the other into something natural, but rather mutual support and encouragement to each try to attempt to be what they could be as human beings. Both, I know would tell you that their M/s dynamic which is TPE is another part of what makes them both far better and happier people. Again they worked on what was needed for their dynamic and both worked jolly hard to develop what they have. I learned an awfull lot from both of them.

nice to read that some people chose it to be happy..because they feel too
no complex matter behind it (unless I misread)

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:35:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Y'know, I have a friend here in CM who rarely posts but absorbs most things posted of any interest to her. This lass is employed at senior management level in a sensitive occupation where she shoulders enormous responsibilities daily. At home she is happily a slave of her master/Husband. Now this is a slave who happily raised a couiple of ums from a first marriage, put them through University and even completed bioth her Masters and Doctorial Degrees. I've known her for over thirty years and visited with her when in the US. She functions very well indeed prior to being collared. It was her desire to be owned not her need. No desperation or anything like that, but rather just a realization that this was where she wanted to be. Both she and her Husband are professionals and thus busy and respect each other's abilities, strengths and weaknesses. No mind games or trying to mould the other into something natural, but rather mutual support and encouragement to each try to attempt to be what they could be as human beings. Both, I know would tell you that their M/s dynamic which is TPE is another part of what makes them both far better and happier people. Again they worked on what was needed for their dynamic and both worked jolly hard to develop what they have. I learned an awfull lot from both of them.

Any chance she has a sister?

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:39:46 PM

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Lilly, In this type of a relationship the Man would be the catalyst TO the relationship, the determiner and yes the holder of same. If a Man attempted to turn that responsibility around and put it on the shoulders of the slave i would feel disgust for a Man because he needed the SLAVE to be the catalyst to the relationship instead of himself. In otherwords, TPE to me is determined by the Man, HE is the catalyst -- not the slave. Slavery to me works very simply -- she reacts to his catalyst. For a Man to attempt to change that very natural concept so he can feel all big and powerful because he can't see her natural reactions as simply what they are but he needs some glorification of his ego stroked to achieve the relationship -- yeah that to me is a weak man and i would feel disgust for him. If a Man NEEDS a slave to achieve the relationship -- then to me he has no business being a Master of a slave. His need to me would be detrimental to the dynamic as i fully believe a Man doesn't need a woman to score his manness or make him a Man or give him the self-confidence and power. However a slave very much does NEED the Man his mastery and his enslavement and yeah, that is quite alright.

Is it onesided -- to me, i am afraid it is. If you are asking do i see M/s only in a Man/female concept -- yes. Its not that i don't acknowledge that it may work the opposite way but that's not my concern. If you are asking to i see all Men as capable of being Masters -- that is a loaded question. As a woman who is not a slave and is free at the moment, the answer is a resounding hell no lol. MOST Men are incapable of achieving mastery over themselves much less a woman lol. However, in slavery, that determination would be his and really none of my concern outside of his standards and expectations of me.

Not sure if this is answering what you asked because i am not really sure what you asked. But no --- they aren't EQUAL exchange concepts as i believe you might be asking. A Man who is a Master is not equal or comparable to a woman who is a slave. To try and compare and contrast sameness you would simply do them both a disadvantage.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/29/2009 2:56:46 PM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:40:38 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Most women who fall into the slave catagory are women who SUCK and more so DON'T WANT that type of authority.

The most important aspect of this response, to me, is the bolded part. Aside from everything else, why would -anyone- want to force someone to change an aspect of hirself that xhe -truly- is unhappy with changing or was never looking to change in the -first- place. The point of being a part of one another's lives, at some level, regardless of any romantic or sexual implications, is because the individuals enjoy having that other person as a part of their lives -- trying to turn the other person into someone that xhe's not, just so xhe'll fit into some pre-conceived notion of what a 'real woman' or a 'good slave/submissive/servant' is, frankly, is amazingly ridiculous. I -like- being a compliment and foil to my companions, and them to me. It makes sense, and we improve one another's lives with the balance.

For Michael, what makes you think that you know what will be -good- for this hypothetical woman that you would force to take authority before you'd grace her with your mastery any better than she does, with the view from inside her own head? What a pile of.... hubris!

I'm sorry, but as much as you say that you don't understand the brouhaha around comprehensive-authority dynamics, I don't understand this whole "I'm going to create an uncomfortable, anxious "dominant" woman, whole-cloth, out of a happy, submissive woman, and then dominate her" thing that you keep insisting is the -only- way a woman is worthy of obtaining your domination. I would much rather cherish my companions, whether they love taking charge or prefer to be kept and serve, for exactly what they are (and adapt to the changes that they go through on their own -- because some folks don't -know- what they want until they get into it and have a chance to try some things out) than to even -think- of trying to make them into something that they're not. Maybe I'm not grasping what I've seen you describe here and on several other threads, but frankly, I don't get it.

Dame Calla

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:45:22 PM

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Just out of curiosity -- when did staying in fear come into the discussion? Or where are people thinking fear is the motivator?

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:47:41 PM

LillyoftheVally

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Thank you Angel, yeah that did answer my questions, I just wanted a little clarification on it :)

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'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:49:40 PM

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Dame Calla -- i guess this is what i am not getting from people as many think there is UNHAPPINESS, MISERY or CAPTIVITY OR now i even saw FEAR in what some are speaking about with regard to TPE. I honestly am at a loss where they come up with this idea lol.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 2:56:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There shouldn't be any "uber" consideration applied to my opinion. I'm relating to what you are saying and think I even understand your desired dynamic; but the path you have set seems to be in conflict with your stated goal - a long term relationship. It would be like healing and teaching a injured bird how to fly again and then expecting them to live in a cage of your Mastery after you do. You can do a GREAT job in the healing/mentoring process but once they are confident enough to fly, how can you expect them to want to live confined? It is not natural for them; and if they do agree to stay with you in a cage, do you want gratitude and guilt as the reason?

Merc, I would much rather have this discussion poolside with a cold beer. If we were really talking birds, I would agree with you but as with all metaphors, there is a point at which its usefulness is lost. We are in fact talking about women who, unlike birds, tend to mate with men and often desire them as mates. Just as I could have all the skills to be a great bottom but the idea doesn't appeal to me, and so a partner who might have all the skills to be independant may not want to exercise them.

Perhaps this will help. If there is a woman locally that I am interested in, I don't pursue them, I might chat them up a bit, I might even flirt a bit but I don't hit on them and do my best to direct them into the heart of the bdsm community here. Why? Because I know that after looking around for a while, she is going to be back. The difference is, before she might of wondered how good I was, now she will have no doubt.

I see life the same way. I have driven women away, I have fucked things up so they left me, but I have never lost a woman to another man. Despite what Leonidas may think, I am my own greatest enemy! That was a bit of self depricating humor for those out there who don't get such things. So perhaps I am just wired a bit differently but I don't need someone small so I feel big and I don't need to bind someone to me so they can't escape.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:03:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

For Michael, what makes you think that you know what will be -good- for this hypothetical woman that you would force to take authority before you'd grace her with your mastery any better than she does, with the view from inside her own head? What a pile of.... hubris!

I'm sorry, but as much as you say that you don't understand the brouhaha around comprehensive-authority dynamics,'t get it.

Dame Calla

How could I be so stupid to think in a comprehensive-authority dynamic I could force someone to change, how utterly stupid of me. Clearly I am not cut out to be allowed near something as powerful as TPE because, god forbid, I might actually want to exercise some fucking authority.

You people crack me the fuck up. What's next, only assholes make women lose weight, get plastic surgery, fuck other men, or do anything the "powerless" woman doesn't want?

I am surprised people don't get dizzy reading these threads considering some of the mental gymnastics going on.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:07:56 PM

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I am done with this thread, enjoy yourselves.

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:12:16 PM

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quote:

I see TPE-style situations as a mutual situation. In order to have authority over something, one must either -yank- that authority away, or have it yielded up by the individual who currently holds it. Yanking it away isn't reasonable when discussing an essentially -consensual- relationship, so proposing that there is some binding that forces a submissive individual in a TPE-style relationship to stay there once xhe's no longer vested in that relationship, just because the dominant individual in the relationship hasn't said "ok, you can go" seems... well... poorly thought out, if nothing else. Attempting to force the situation may -seem- 'powerful', but in reality, it isn't particularly functional (at least in my experience) over time. Therefore, it makes sense that TPE really sort of exists without a particular time constraint, and that its mechanism is one of who holds the authority, by mutual accord, and its limiting factor starts and ends when that comprehensive authority is given up or taken back. Now -- you'll always find those who insist that, even though they clearly do not hold the authority in a given situation, they are still in a "TPE relationship" because -they- said so and they insist that that means that it is until they all -die-, regardless of what any submissive person in their sphere thinks (or even, in at least on situation I've encountered, regardless of whether their submissive person has already walked out the door)... but really, how many of us couldn't see right through that scenario to its essential nature?

As shocking as this may be, I have to say that we are in total agreement on every single point you have made here.

I highlighted those two sentences because I think they are go to the heart of what causes so much dissension when discussing these things. There are always people who express and even perceive their relationship in magical and mysterious terms, because they think it is the words that define it, rather then the actions, but for sure this is not unique to practitioners of TPE any more than of D/s or countless other lifestyles.

And as you and others have stated, this stuff isn't that complicated, it is a framework from which to exchange the authority, the scale of which seems to define its nature. But, as always is the case, the complexity of a relationship is based on the people who inhabit it, not the framework that surrounds it, and this applies to D/s as much as to TPE for sure.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

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(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:16:11 PM

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quote:

So perhaps I am just wired a bit differently but I don't need someone small so I feel big and I don't need to bind someone to me so they can't escape.

Why are you presuming what we are talking about is small and big versus simply different and why are you presuming that just because they "can't" escape they really want too?

Michael, the problem with many who say or want to be slaves is they make it this HUGE THINKING THING, and yeah that to me is where the negative issues that YOU are speaking about come in, but for many this is such a natural reaction to a catalyst that is naturally simply HIM and there is no negativity that you are implying there is. Its really not as evil as you and yes others are desperate to make it, its not prison, its not negative captivity and its nothing shameful. As i explain to many -- it just simply IS.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/29/2009 3:18:29 PM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:18:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
No mind games or trying to mould the other into something natural, but rather mutual support and encouragement to each try to attempt to be what they could be as human beings. Both, I know would tell you that their M/s dynamic which is TPE is another part of what makes them both far better and happier people. Again they worked on what was needed for their dynamic and both worked jolly hard to develop what they have. I learned an awfull lot from both of them.

This would pretty much describe what I aspire to with Carol & I. Yup, others may want somethign different. And, honestly, I'm not even sure how TPE-like it really is (although certainly we qualify by Leonidas' description). But this is kind of how I see us... just two people getting along in life. It just so happens that it works out better (or at least it is this day/month/year) when I'm in charge.

barelynangel asked
i guess this is what i am not getting from people as many think there is UNHAPPINESS, MISERY or CAPTIVITY OR now i even saw FEAR in what some are speaking about with regard to TPE. I honestly am at a loss where they come up with this idea lol.

They came up with it right here...

It's a conditioned failure response, more or less. It can either be trained on purpose or it can happen accidentally. After several "trials" of fully intending to leave but then begging to be taken back, the slave begins to experience themselves as "unable". Thoughts of leaving get chained to feelings of inability and failure, and the humiliation of having failed and having to beg to be taken back
-- Leonidas, #305

Both Leonidas and Orion indicated that these were actual tactics that they actually use. I can take directly from what was written there the outcome of "inability", "failure" and "humiliation" which together form captivity (defined as inability to leave). For me, at least, such things would also mean "unhappiness" if not misery. How many people are actually content with feeling incompetent, humiliated, and trapped?

I don't think it's all that mysterious where "people come up with this stuff from". I'm going to leave the board warriors to figuring out if that's all evil or not. But there's the answer to your question as asked.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:21:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Leonidas and others are saying slaves need to be dependent on their masters because they can't make decisions on their own or at least do it poorly or whatever the hell it is they are saying. I am saying the opposite or at least I think I am saying the opposite, at this point, frankly I am just losing interest in the whole mess.

If someone wants to be happy with a bird with clipped wings and brag how it doesn't fly away, have at it.

And I'll bet you guys never even saw my lips move. I'm sneaky like that.

My slave earns high five/low six figures (depending on bonuses) for me making important decisions for a company whose name you'd all recognize. If we'd like to compare raw analytical capacity and decision making capability, I'd stack her up against just about anyone here, (including erstwhile keepers of raptors), and I'm sure she'd acquit herself handsomely. But, lets just stick a pin in the back handed personal attacks for a sec.

What my slave does not have, that anyone who should seriously consider keeping her as a slave should have in spades, is a strong desire for self-determination. Meaning the desire to set her own course in life, and strive for her own account. She isn't all that interested in striving for her own account. She would prefer a life of service, and devotion to someone else, and to have them set the course. She's a slave by nature. Serving her master is what makes her happy and fulfilled.

If she had a strong desire for self-determination, frankly, she'd make a crappy slave, romantic notions about her doing it out of love and admiration notwithstanding. She would chafe under a master's discipline and control and having the course set for her.

It's different when it's something that you live every day. Unless a slave is genuinely suited to life in a collar, they aren't going to remain in one long term. In other words, romantic notions are romantic notions wherever you go. Slavery based upon them really has no better shot long term than a marriage based on them. After the notions fade, people are going to be who they are, and if who they are is not consistent with what they're trying to be, it falls apart.

If you haven't done what you're arguing for and made it work long term, you might want to temper your rhetoric with a little pragmatism, and maybe even listen to those who have made it work long term, rather than talking quite so much.

That's what I think anyhow. Your mileage will certainly vary.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/29/2009 3:22:56 PM >

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Leonidas

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Master/slave questions - 7/29/2009 3:21:26 PM

LillyoftheVally

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FR

To be honest I do not get the desire to shit on other peoples relationship style, I do not agree with everything that people have written here, but then I am lucky because i am not in a relationship with any of the people here. What others want is cool if it works for them, who cares. Generally the problem with this thread is the fact that rather than being a genuine exploration of what others think it is a way to belittle the other. Ok so Angel and Micheal will never bump uglies, and that is fine, there is a place for everyone on this thread to find another who matches their definition. It doesn't have to be all.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to leadership527)

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