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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/23/2009 10:53:21 AM   
dreamerdreaming


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I prefer "Authority Transfer", or "Power Surrender".

I feel no need to add any "total" or "absolute", etc. 

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/23/2009 11:13:41 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

You will find than many Masters/Mistresses do much the same. The fact that some "Powers" are granted back almost immediately, does not detract from the fact that the dynamic is a TPE one. However I know there will be others who will dispute this from their own stance. 


Agreed.  A slave isn't a robot.  Most of the ones that I have seen are fully capable of independant action, and even disobedience (the horror), from time to time.  In my experience, those who have the most trouble comprehending what a "TPE" like relationship is are just lacking some experience. 

A "TPE" relationship just means that both parties acknowledge that there is nothing that is exempted from the authority and control of the owner.  That doesn't require or imply that the owner actually control everything or that the owned complete one command at a time and then stand there immobile awaiting the next command.

The way that it actually works is the way that you describe.  The owner establishes a "framework" of what is expected/required, and the owned operates within that framework.  Stepping outside that framework is what we call "disobedience". 

Here's a simple example.  The owner, in general, really doesn't care what kind of underwear the owned wears.  Doesn't care to pick it out for them, and doesn't inspect to make sure that their underwear preferences are being observed, because they don't generally have any.  Does that mean that they have now left the relm of a "TPE" relationship because (omg) the owner doesn't choose to control something about the owned?  No, of course not.  Why? because if the owned comes out wearing some kind of underwear that the owner doesn't approve of, the owner is fully within their rights to say "go take that off, I don't like it", and immediate, unquestioning obedience is required.  Even though the owner may not choose to exercise control over underwear choices, they do in fact have complete control over underwear choices.

Long story short, folks who get their panties in a twist about this stuff and would rather spout some trite crap about sunshine and rainbows are simply talking out of their ass because they have no experience on the subject.  Of course, actually knowing what you're talking about has never been a prerequisite to having something to say around here.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/23/2009 11:18:24 AM >


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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/23/2009 8:03:39 PM   
yellowroses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Total is total.  If you enter into a "TPE" relationship, you can certainly have desires, preferences and opinions about things, but you are surrendering total control.  Once the collar goes on, all the decisions are out of your hands.  In surrendering all control, you have to trust that the man you are surrendering it to will handle you responsibly, and make good choices for you, since you are no longer making them yourself. 



So here it is again, the casting about of terms like "Total" promiscuously, then trying artfully to find a way to make it mean what it does not mean.

I can't help but suspect that the reason so many are so eager and aching to use words like "total" and "slavery", when in fact they mean "semi", and "submissive", is the notion that a slave is somehow better than a submissive, and TOTAL POWER EXCHANGE is somehow better than a simple Dominant/ submissive relationship.

I think there is this idea that if one doesn't rush into that deep, eternal, everlasting agape love, using every superlative word in the thesaurus, then the relationship is somehow lessened, a light beer version of true love.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 12:56:27 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Even though the owner may not choose to exercise control over underwear choices, they do in fact have complete control over underwear choices.

Long story short, folks who get their panties in a twist about this stuff and would rather spout some trite crap about sunshine and rainbows are simply talking out of their ass because they have no experience on the subject.  Of course, actually knowing what you're talking about has never been a prerequisite to having something to say around here.


So, by this definition someone would be in the same sort of TPE you are in if they decided to control nothing at all  while their slave shaved their owners head, cuckholded him and used him for a doorstop IF and ONLY IF, someone like yourself COULD take control IF they wanted to?

I think I will keep spouting trite crap about sunshine and rainbows while my ass talks about being a "mere" dominant, or maybe I will start talking about how I exercise TPEITLATN which is Total Power Exchange In This Life And The Next.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 1:45:05 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
So, by this definition someone would be in the same sort of TPE you are in if they decided to control nothing at all  while their slave shaved their owners head, cuckholded him and used him for a doorstop IF and ONLY IF, someone like yourself COULD take control IF they wanted to?


One would imagine that if any action of a slave became displeasing as opposed to neutral and insignificant to the owner, that control would quite rapidly cease to be theoretical and become actual.

A lot of owners in the real world just don't give a flying fuck what underwear their property is wearing on a given day, or how many times a day they go pee, or whether they use bar soap or liquid soap in the shower.  Theoretically they could dictate all of those things if they felt like it, but I can't imagine that many 24/7 slave owners would particularly feel like it unless micromanagement was their kink and they had a whooooole lot of spare time and energy on their hands.  Most people have things like jobs and families and lives to think about in addition to their D/s relationships.

It doesn't matter how TPE a relationship is that I'm in.  If I have to tell an adult human being how to dress every day, what brand of toothpaste to use and when he can pee, then he's way too much trouble to be worth collaring.  That kind of hassle is not going to improve my life; it's going to be like raising a two year old.  Part of the value of adult human property is the "adult human" part.  That means he is expected to be responsible for his own underwear and the details of his own personal hygiene.  If I'm in the mood to see him in something specific, I can give that order.  In the absence of such an order, I expect him to function on his own and make intelligent choices that are generally pleasing to me, without the need to be supervised or micromanaged in annoying detail. 

I'm not in this lifestyle to potty train adults; that's just not my fetish.  So no, I am not willing to exercise micromanagement level control even in a 24/7 relationship.  That ability may exist theoretically, and I may exercise it on occasion, but if I've made a good choice of intelligent adult human property, for the most part I shouldn't need to. Micromanagement does not define a TPE, and that seems to be your argument.


< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 7/24/2009 1:47:10 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 6:35:14 AM   
BitaTruble


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"Micromanagement does not define a TPE"

I think that's a mistake that is often made, too. People think they are one in the same and they aren't. I don't get that from what Michael's actually writing though. What I'm reading from him is that reactive dominance is pretty lazy and from my POV at least, it's a lousy way to lead a relationship.

"Most" of the slaves and submissive with whom I am acquainted won't thrive under reactive or lazy dominance. That doesn't mean it has to be chest thumping in your face all the time or rainbows and butterflies all the time. A little perspective might bring a little balance. A combination of horse whisperer and Conan the Barbarian works well for me.. all one or all the other probably wouldn't make for a long lasting relationship with most of us or even many of us who are submissives or slaves.

As a slave, I shouldn't only have to change my path just because the chain is yanked.. if he's leading and continues walking, I will follow .. but, damn it, you do have to move or I will wander off in an attractive direction and if you're left behind, then so be it. You don't deserve me if you can't hold me.

::chuckles at potty training adults:: Plenty of 'dominants' could use that sort of training because the pissing contests get to the extreme quite often around these parts.

MMV

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(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 8:28:55 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I think that's a mistake that is often made, too. People think they are one in the same and they aren't. I don't get that from what Michael's actually writing though. What I'm reading from him is that reactive dominance is pretty lazy and from my POV at least, it's a lousy way to lead a relationship.



Bita, while I agree with you about reactive dominance and the importance of leading a relationship, I was trying to grasp how some can be so sure that whatever it is they are doing is "more" than someone else if the only difference is they "could" do more.  It just smacks of teenagers sitting around comparing sports teams or cars and each bragging about how "their team/car" is better.

Saying "I am in a TPE relationship" but then not exercising much control/authority is fine but sitting in one and saying someone else doesn't have as much control/authority because they "can't in theory" exercise as much seems silly.  In my experience those who say "I will do anything" usually are the first to balk if you actually try anything and the ones who know their limits often are far more willing to actually do anything.

I suppose I should just not give a shit if someone wants to claim TPE any more than if they think they are from another planet.  I just find it odd that it always seems to be people who I don't think are all that dominant and haven't mastered their partners that seem to scream the loudest about TPE but again, the only skin off my teeth is that they tend to muck up a good discussion.



(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 8:30:04 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

It doesn't matter how TPE a relationship is that I'm in.  If I have to tell an adult human being how to dress every day, what brand of toothpaste to use and when he can pee, then he's way too much trouble to be worth collaring.  That kind of hassle is not going to improve my life; it's going to be like raising a two year old.  Part of the value of adult human property is the "adult human" part.  That means he is expected to be responsible for his own underwear and the details of his own personal hygiene.  If I'm in the mood to see him in something specific, I can give that order.  In the absence of such an order, I expect him to function on his own and make intelligent choices that are generally pleasing to me, without the need to be supervised or micromanaged in annoying detail. 



I completely agree!

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 8:30:15 AM   
LillyoftheVally


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Hmm I wonder why their is a hierarchy, why anything has to be 'more' than anything else and why the hell it matters?

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 11:12:45 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Hmm I wonder why their is a hierarchy, why anything has to be 'more' than anything else and why the hell it matters?


Because some people can stand on their own and others can only feel big if they make other's seem small.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 11:51:23 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I completely agree!


I essentially echoed what Leonidas said, and you tore into him.  Why not me?

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 2:22:38 PM   
Leonidas


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Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


Bita, while I agree with you about reactive dominance and the importance of leading a relationship, I was trying to grasp how some can be so sure that whatever it is they are doing is "more" than someone else if the only difference is they "could" do more.  It just smacks of teenagers sitting around comparing sports teams or cars and each bragging about how "their team/car" is better.



Ok, once again I see that I have given you more credit than you deserve.  What makes it TPE, as opposed to not TPE, is that there are no carve outs that allow the submissive party to say "Hey, you can't tell me what kind of underwear to wear.  That's a hard limit of mine, and you agreed to it in our contract before I agreed to accept your collar".

Some folks, you included, take the bone-headed view from time to time that TPE isn't really possible because you can't or wouldn't want to control everything.  I was just explaining, for those who really want to know, as opposed to posturing, why that isn't so.

I thought that would be obvious to someone for whom English is a first language.  Thank you for disabusing me of that over-estimation.   You're probably not really that dense, I'm sure you're being intentionally obtuse because you think you're scoring some points with an imaginary peanut gallery that's in your head (golf clap), but in the interests of having a reasonably on point discussion, do you think you could try to stay with us here?

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/24/2009 2:24:40 PM >


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Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 3:34:30 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
What makes it TPE, as opposed to not TPE, is that there are no carve outs that allow the submissive party to say "Hey, you can't tell me what kind of underwear to wear.  That's a hard limit of mine, and you agreed to it in our contract before I agreed to accept your collar".


quote:

Some folks, you included, take the bone-headed view from time to time that TPE isn't really possible because you can't or wouldn't want to control everything.  I was just explaining, for those who really want to know, as opposed to posturing, why that isn't so.


My bone-headed view is that TPE is one more semantic game created by people who don't have the balls to say "this is what I do and I stand by it" but instead need some external thing to rationalize how what they do is somehow more despite being at best the same as everyone else and often quite less.  

quote:

I'm sure you're being intentionally obtuse because you think you're scoring some points with an imaginary peanut gallery that's in your head (golf clap), but in the interests of having a reasonably on point discussion, do you think you could try to stay with us here?


Leonidas, I find it amusing that you could think I give a rats ass for how people think of me, I mean Nihilus is the current sex god de jure and you are the gor guru.  Besides, the sort of women I desire have no interest in someone who plays to the masses and arguing like this turns BSB off worse than vanilla porn.  This is me standing at the gate fighting a very solo battle, but then again, I like long odds.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 3:51:44 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

My bone-headed view is that TPE is one more semantic game created by people who don't have the balls to say "this is what I do and I stand by it" but instead need some external thing to rationalize how what they do is somehow more despite being at best the same as everyone else and often quite less.  



Yeah, I feel the same way about terms like "Football" and "Basketball".  It is a sad commentary that we should have these symbols that stand in for an entire set of related practices.  Dammit instead of saying "Football" people should have the balls to launch into a detailed explaination of what the fuck was going on every time they want to describe what they were watching last Sunday.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that people say things like "Football" and then act as if they know what they're talking about just to make me feel like what they were watching is somehow more than the five on five contest with a round ball and two hoops with nets attached that I was watching.  It is, to be sure, a conspiracy to try to make me feel inferior.

Dude.  Your mind.  You really should look into it.

_____________________________

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Leonidas

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 3:56:31 PM   
Apocalypso


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Jesus Christ.  Will you boys just fuck and get it out of your systems please?

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Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
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(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 3:59:32 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Leonidas,

I look at two women sitting at the feet of two guys and I just see two women sitting at the feet of some guys.  You however, possess the amazing skill to not  only tell which is a slave but whether or not she is in a TPE relationship, just amazing!

If you had just told me at the start of all this I would have surrendered to your clearly far more superior understanding off all this.  I mean, even as sports illiterate as I am, I can tell a football game from a baseball game, I can't ever figure out what they are doing but I can certainly tell the games apart.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 4:09:20 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I look at two women sitting at the feet of two guys and I just see two women sitting at the feet of some guys.  You however, possess the amazing skill to not  only tell which is a slave but whether or not she is in a TPE relationship, just amazing!

If you had just told me at the start of all this I would have surrendered to your clearly far more superior understanding off all this.  I mean, even as sports illiterate as I am, I can tell a football game from a baseball game, I can't ever figure out what they are doing but I can certainly tell the games apart.



Look, the OP was asking about TPE, and I think that by any objective measure, I gave him a pretty good explaination of what TPE is and is not.  Then you decided to jump in with your little bit of smarm that continues to eminate from that stick of unknown origin up your ass that seems to compel you just about every time I post something.  I can see why you're so fond of BSB.  Bitches of a feather, and all.  But I really don't care.  If you say something assinine, I'm good with pointing it out.  Hope you're having fun.

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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 4:15:27 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Leonidas,

Sorry but that was like taking candy from a baby, I feel sort of guilty but I do like the sports analogy though!  That was so much fun, here's another one.

Most of this discussion to me sounds like guys sitting around a bar trash talking.  One is a AAA league player, one is a rank amateur, another is an all star HS player, and the last is  a "could have been". 

The all star HS kid is telling everyone how great his major league career is going to be but it is all theoretical
The rank amateur is shutting up and listening, trying not to say anything stupid
The "could have been" is telling the all star HS what he should be doing and the AAA league player everything he did wrong.
The AAA league player is just enjoying the free drinks.

However, if they are all wearing the same BASEBALL uniform most of us couldn't tell them apart.  Until we see how they perform on the field, its all just bullshit.  One problem, in BASEBALL they are all hitting the same ball with pretty much the same bats.

In the subject you and I are ACTUALLY talking about we are all dominating VERY different women using VERY different tools.  Perhaps you are impressed with a guy who can hit slow hit softball as much as someone who can hit a ball half that size doing four times as fast by a guy who makes a few million dollars ONLY because of his pitching but to ME, those two guys are playing a VERY different game.  So, when the guy playing softball wants to brag about hitting 300 compared to the guy hitting a 90mph hardball's 250, sorry if I don't get all that impressed.

So NO, we are NOT talking about the difference between baseball and football although somedays I wonder about that.



(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 4:16:51 PM   
NihilusZero


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From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I completely agree!


I essentially echoed what Leonidas said, and you tore into him.  Why not me?


You'll need to wait your turn.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


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(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/24/2009 4:22:27 PM   
Apocalypso


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THE LAIBACH KITTENS ARE NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE DIRECTION THIS THREAD IS HEADING IN.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 60
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