quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Whatever your reason was for posting it Prinnsex -- it obviously did not turn out as you planned if many of your posts are an indication.  Because you STARTED the thread and gave the story -- you are in fact the instigator of what occured.  The stone in the pond so to speak -- ripples etc.  You aren't a victim of what happened on this thread, whether you meant to or not -- you opened a can of worms with your initial story and the subsequent posts.  Somehow i can't believe you didn't know the reactions wouldn't be what they were from many.    You spoke of abuse of a guy hurting a woman, if there were other facts that needed to be said -- you DIDN'T say them.  That is your fault.

All in all, you instigated the responses by your initial post -- whether you MEANT to get those responses is moot -- when you post something you are placing it up for judgement, and opinions -- you can't control what judgements and opinions you will get.

angel

In zephyr's view it isn't an issue of consent at all; noone can beat on a person without their consent and in both cases consent is given whether consciously or unconsciously. The consent is revoked only when the victim of DV stands up, says "No, no more I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore" and walks out. But rest assured prin that the relationship your daughter is in is an abusive one which has nothing to do with submission and ending it is a decision your daughter is going to have to make on her own. Noone can do that for her. What you can do is continue to be there for her so that when she decides enough is enough she has somewhere to go.

she wishes you well,

zephyr

(who is using her kazzaslave account until a new one is made)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kazzaslave

Greetings prin,


zephyr has been over and over your original posting as well as reading the whole thread. You have asked how you can condemn your daughter's relationship when you yourself subject yourself to regular beatings. As someone who has been there zephyr would like to answer that question.
Just to clarify: I mean.

The first difference between what your daughter experiences and what a you now experience is viewpoint: The victim of abuse (in this case your daughter) thinks "I don't deserve better than this" That person submits to the violence and keeps going back because they honestly think so little of themself that the abusive relationship is seen as a normal, healthy one. There is self-loathing, self-hatred and usually a role model to draw on.
I understand and I did do my best to analyse the situation objectively in my lobg post above and to clarify what I felt were the particular dynamics that created her role model for violence
The submissive on the other hand submits from a position of strength. The beatings which the submissive experiences are a source of release for both Dom/me and submissive. There is no damage of a physical, mental. or emotional nature.
I agree.

The second difference is the person who beats your daughter vs the person you submit to beatings from. Your daughter's abuser builds himself up by beating her down physically and emotionally. The goal is to destroy rather than build up because it's the only way he can feel better about himself.
In this incident there were no witnesses and I did not want to condemn. But yes I know he builds himself up by putting others down, It was the very first incident of him (alledgedly) doing so with my daughter.

The dominant on the other hand looks to build up his/her submissive mentally and emotionally; the Dominant's goal or one of them anyway is to make their submissive a stronger person. Yes the physical beatings are there in both cases but in the case of the M/s relationship the intent to damage isn't there.
I absolutely agree. In a perfect world. There are, sadly, many so-called Masters who do not know the difference. And many s-types who do not recognise damage in the name of bdsm until it is too late. Emotional masochism is a mine field.

In zephyr's view it isn't an issue of consent at all; noone can beat on a person without their consent and in both cases consent is given whether consciously or unconsciously. The consent is revoked only when the victim of DV stands up, says "No, no more I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore" and walks out. But rest assured prin that the relationship your daughter is in is an abusive one which has nothing to do with submission and ending it is a decision your daughter is going to have to make on her own. Noone can do that for her. What you can do is continue to be there for her so that when she decides enough is enough she has somewhere to go.
I did not say that hecause she was submissive she 'created' this event. I explained how, because she had been in an abusive relationship with her father, and had not recognised it as such, that she did not, does not recognise the distinction between the two. And yes she will have to sort out the consequences of her submission and learn to take responsibility for her disposition.
Thank you zephyr for making the distinctions so clear and for stating the differences so simply yet eloquently.

she wishes you well,

zephyr

(who is using her kazzaslave account until a new one is made)

[color="#888888" size="3"]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius


I do have a few comments and conclusions:

It is better that the boy...and yes, he is still a boy rather than a man, goes into the military. I agree that given your society and yes, I am American, not British and yes I only see it from the outside, he probably has no chance in hell of making it without some sort of outside intervention and the military is such a path.
Believe me it ois his only hope. Although he comes from a strong well knit family there are issues there (as there are in any family). A deceased father, a step-father who is constantly conflictual and the boys total inability to process that.
It IS a waste-land here. In this area of the UK I would say it is more like an econnomic war zone. Swathes of contry-side torn up for building redevelopment left strewn with rusting JCB's like tanks out in a dessert.
Derelict office spaces still looking like visualisations in an archtects head. Except if you look closer. Compaq, 3M...whole towns whose prosperity relied upon people being in work..just dereliction. Like a vast set for 28 days later. call the movie 48,000 square feet later...call it 48 million square feet of office space to rent and you might have a fair picture. All there is are drugs and binge drinking and getting lost in the cyber space of a Playstation. No benefit system available for 16 to 18 year olds. No housing for them to live in. It is a lost generation and the consequences of that alone are almost impossible to comprehend. The Army is his only hope.

It is better for your daughter that he is away from her. You very clearly expressed (to me) why she is as she is and how it both came about and is expressed. She must, as you stated, get past that to mature and grow in a healthy direction. Where she is is both unhealthy and dangerous.
I ttotally agree. And what I instantly intervened upon last night was a telephone conversation she was having where she had begun to brag about the bruises to her friend. 

If you push people hard enough you will get a reaction out of anyone.
I agree. No gender bias. Just because she is a girl she can provoke as powerfully if not more so than the young man himself.

That is the question of whether a M/s situation can be a part of mental therapy. I started a thread about it elsewhere sometime back and got some interesting reactions. http://www.seekdiscipline.com/posts/178596/0
I will look at that thread. I can't remember if I contributed or if I did what I said. But yes, yes and yes again. I think one of the succinct roles of Mastery (differentiatimng it from the control of domination) is to save a slave from self-harm, self-deprecation and to anble a slave to walk the fine line between the consequences of no limits (use) and abuse. I may be defining abuse here somewhat differently than is common. What I mean by abuse use is ab-use and not something that is DONE to someone else. Ab-use... that which interferes with the usual functioning and creates a failure to function. Repeat: not something done to someone else.

 I am not saying you should go out and find a Dom or Master for your daughter tho that had been one of the thoughts I had early on.
I am 'out of' if you will a 1950's traditional home. Her father and my ex was Italian. He came equipped with a clear set of roles for himself and for the mother within the family. And a cultural translation is required here. Unless you lived in post war Britain and were working class. Or have lived within the confines of an Italian family. Neither of those are play acting situations. My daughter has internalised both of those sets of values. I forsee she will be a 'traditional' woman to all intents and purposes. Maybe she will rebel and surprise me though,. Who knows.

Right now you are enabling many young people to do things which does harm their future. Yes, you are doing so for good reasons with the hope that they will grow out of them. You ARE an enabler. You MAY be right in doing so for some of them. Personally I don't believe you are following a good or correct path but I do think that you believe that you are following the best path you can given circumstances and history that only you know.
We all follow are own paths. If I could wave a magic wand then the abuse would never have happened. But then looking back the father never would have been able to co-opt his anger or his need to dominate a woman unless it was through outbursts of rage. He died a month ago aged 44: his body consumed by anger turned in on itself.


No, this is not very concrete or detailed answers but there really are none in this situation if you are not going to have the boy arrested and I don't think you are.
It's not difficult to get a man arrested for abuse. With regard to the father: he was 'arrested' three times. At the last charge he appeared in court and I gave witness by a video link. The prosection believed him to be so dangerous that they advised I was not in the same court room. He still walked from court a free man. He still was awarded access and shared custody of his children. So:I know how difficult it is to get a man charged.

....
Thank you. Will go back and read your thread now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

You have read all this ... what's your opinion on the cultural translation ? (NO I'm not taking the piss)

Pirate

quote:

Right now you are enabling many young people to do things which does harm their future. Yes, you are doing so for good reasons with the hope that they will grow out of them. You ARE an enabler. You MAY be right in doing so for some of them. Personally I don't believe you are following a good or correct path but I do think that you believe that you are following the best path you can given circumstances and history that only you know. In this situation, you are very much an adult and it is your responsibility for what you are doing. You do seem to be taking that responsibility and I consider that a very good thing.

quote:

My house is a sanctuary not only for my own but for any of their friends who stay here, eat here and sleep here. They are allowed to drink, take drugs (no hard drugs) and have sex here. That is because I have had experience of drinking, taking drugs and having sex and I would rather them do it here than feel they had to go elsewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetPoosy

quote:

Right now you are enabling many young people to do things which does harm their future. Yes, you are doing so for good reasons with the hope that they will grow out of them. You ARE an enabler. You MAY be right in doing so for some of them. Personally I don't believe you are following a good or correct path but I do think that you believe that you are following the best path you can given circumstances and history that only you know. In this situation, you are very much an adult and it is your responsibility for what you are doing. You do seem to be taking that responsibility and I consider that a very good thing.

Malkinius, when I read your post, specifically about the "enabling" part, I believed that you were referring to the OP's statement

quote:

My house is a sanctuary not only for my own but for any of their friends who stay here, eat here and sleep here. They are allowed to drink, take drugs (no hard drugs) and have sex here. That is because I have had experience of drinking, taking drugs and having sex and I would rather them do it here than feel they had to go elsewhere.

Was I correct in that assumption?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

You have read all this ... what's your opinion on the cultural translation ? (NO I'm not taking the piss)

Pirate

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Right now you are enabling many young people to do things which does harm their future. Yes, you are doing so for good reasons with the hope that they will grow out of them. You ARE an enabler. You MAY be right in doing so for some of them. Personally I don't believe you are following a good or correct path but I do think that you believe that you are following the best path you can given circumstances and history that only you know. In this situation, you are very much an adult and it is your responsibility for what you are doing. You do seem to be taking that responsibility and I consider that a very good thing.

quote:

My house is a sanctuary not only for my own but for any of their friends who stay here, eat here and sleep here. They are allowed to drink, take drugs (no hard drugs) and have sex here. That is because I have had experience of drinking, taking drugs and having sex and I would rather them do it here than feel they had to go elsewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Stella, there is a line that is crossed. Communication and holding accountable is one thing. Allowing young people with immature brains and reasoning to do whatever they want and say it's okay because they are doing it at home is something entirely different.

She can treat them like adults all she wants, the fact is, they are not adults. Treating them as so, does not make it magically happen.

In my opinion it sends the signal that their poor choices are acceptable choices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetPoosy


Once again, it is a difference in location but I find myself surprised in this day and age that someone would admit to allowing underage drinking and other behaviours under her roof. She is lucky she doesn't live in Arizona, where it is highly illegal to provide alcohol to a minor, even if the minor is your child. Any minor found to have ANY alcohol in their system can be arrested, and teenagers coming back from Mexico are often tested and arrested!

quote:

Three: I do not and would not impose my etic upon Arizona. I am often offended by ideological imperialism.
Please read what I say and try to avoid projection of your ideology onto me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wyzardsgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


.... but here in the U.S., Prinsexx could be charged with any number of violations of U.S. law. The first one that comes to mind is contributing to the delinquency of minors.

You have to love it here really.............
that statement my dear has made my day.
Is it still the Mcarthy era or a witch hunt?

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/11/2009 1:15:34 PM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Wyzardsgirl)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetPoosy

quote:

Three: I do not and would not impose my etic upon Arizona. I am often offended by ideological imperialism.
Please read what I say and try to avoid projection of your ideology onto me.

Just stating what the consequences of your actions would be where I live. I did not state that the laws that I live under should be made universal.

See what I mean about twisting things?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx


First point to clarify:
I never said anything about provinding alcohol to minors.
Second point: I am indeed lucky that I have never lived in Arizona but have travelled, lived and worked extensively across Eirope. In Europe alcohol consumption is a part of daily life allowing young people to be socialised appropriately.
Three: I do not and would not impose my etic upon Arizona. I am often offended by ideological imperialism.
Please read what I say and try to avoid projection of your ideology onto me.