RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE".....

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 8:07:17 PM

NoreenSwan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

As for women who simply state up front what their expectations are, rather than get bent out of shape if the guy feels it's not his cup of tea, it seems these men are blasting the women for being up front about their expectations regarding gifts or generosity; these same men don't get bent out of shape if a woman is clear about her sexual or sensual expectations (again, he can agree or move on), but the minute it has to do with money, even small amounts, they think it's ok to call this woman a gold digger.

Akasha

Double standards.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 8:11:47 PM

NoreenSwan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

Starbuck, if you did such a thing, I suspect most of the rest of us would simply shrug our shoulders and say, "Well, he's entitled to his opinion." The fact that several submissive men didn't do the same in regard to the OP is what I've been banging on about throughout this thread: If it's not your thing, why continue to be so outraged about it? For whatever reason, there's quite an amount of hostility being shown by a (thankfully) relatively small group of vociferous but socially impotent men.

Why do these bottoms in here feel so threatened by females dominants doing their thing? If you don't like it, move on.

(in reply to Venatrix)

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 8:17:50 PM

NoreenSwan

Posts: 117
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

BDSM is about personal relationships and fantasies. Male supremacist, male dominant, and male-dominant-economic relationships can exist in our community unchallenged--there is an entire sub-forum on these boards alone for the Male Supremacist fantasy called Gor, for example. Equality in this case would simply be a matter of equal time, equal treatment and equal tolerance for female dominance in all its myriad forms. The real elephant in the room, so far as I'm concerned, is the way that male dominants and female submissives are given much greater latitude in this community to explore their fantasies, dynamics and relationships, while hetero female dominants and male submissives have to live in a stadium full of rusty beartraps which will damn near take your leg off if you dare to take a step.

Tribute and financial domination are just bdsm fetishistic behavior. Nothing more...and nothing less. If you don't want to give tribute to a woman, or to support her economically, because it turns you off--don't. But that does not translate into a god-given right to dictate your squicks and fetishes to everyone else, much less sit in judgment and tell all women, including the ones that are violently incompatible with you, what they are allowed to talk about, want, and need from a submissive partner. That is not your right and it is beyond the vale of the tiresome. These women know what they want and they know what their men like. If they don't, they will be punished by failed relationships, like any selfish lover. Failed relationships are all the punishment that is ever required for romantic malfeasance. They don't need the Male Sub Inquisition to fire up the auto da fe because the desires and needs they have are condemned as heretical whether their submissive partners are having fun or not.

We are all adults here. No domme can compel a fully adult, rational man of ANY orientation to open his wallet against his own will within the framework of bdsm. If he is really being forced or compelled, what we're talking about is not bdsm--it's just another boring garden variety criminal offense like rape or assault, and the people we should call are the real police, not the Thought Police.

An adult consenting submissive or bottom is always giving his consent for a reason. The thing about threads like this is that the Money Tabernacle Choir is so shrill and vitriolic that both sides of a consenting bdsm dynamic are drowned out. As if their contentment within their OWN mutually consenting bdsm activities is meaningless to the issue! Nothing could be more perfectly horseshit.

If you're not the guy whose libido is served by this fetishistic behavior--groovy. But get this through your skull, if nothing else: SOME GUYS ARE VERY INTO THIS. I get emails like this quite often, with people responding to a female dominant profile that isn't even looking for a regular submissive, much less a "Money Pig". If I had any potential to enjoy this fetish, these guys might very well have activated it by expressing this particular need for humiliation. My submissives often bring out new facets of my dominance by the nature of their submissive/masochistic desires.

Imho, equality is achieved in this community by recognizing that male submissives and masochists are just as capable of willingly and happily playing the "victim" as female ones, and women are just as capable as men are of playing the dominant role in these fantasies. Equality is not achieved by forcing everyone to wear a unitard and live in a bland vanilla authoritarian nightmare where all choices are inflicted by others, and no one ever gets another kinky erection again.

As for reconciling D/S with equality? I would think that everyone who participates in a consenting D/S relationship or tryst has crossed over this hurdle long ago. Seriously, this is the kindergarten level of D/S comprehension. "I'm a submissive masochist. Being beaten, humiliated and used makes me incredibly hot and deliriously happy. Maybe as a rational consenting adult I should take some responsibility for these needs and find a person who can meet them. Maybe in the process I could take some kind of human interest in my partner and help them achieve happiness too."

Sea's argument is that because women are human beings who can make choices, that all societal constraints, preconditions and problems can be ignored. He is essentially explaining why he feels no need to empathize or try to understand women that he regards as his moral inferiors. He is defending a perceived right to judge and condemn.

What I dismiss and reject is that right to judge and condemn. I am all in favor of personal choices and I have affirmed Sea's choice and your personal choice many times--that is, the right to choose NOT to tribute, because that is the correct choice for YOU.

The fact that you have a right to say "no" to any power exchange for yourself, however, doesn not mean that you have a right to dominate other women and men socially. Your version of submission and love is no more Twue than anyone else's.

If women were posting threads every other week complaining about how All Men Want Is to Beat and Rape Me, and using these threads as an opportunity to vent about male sexual violence, how prevalent it is in society, how tired they are of thuggish male profiles, and how all the male doms who don't cater to their romantic fantasies were actually just thugs and fakes? I would think that they were very guilty of bashing men. Sorry, but this really would work the other way just as easily.

Great points about double standards and judging other people's lives.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 8:33:06 PM

blackpearl81

Posts: 506
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoreenSwan

Why do these bottoms in here feel so threatened by females dominants doing their thing? If you don't like it, move on.

Well.. Me personally, from the s-side of the fence, I think it might be because they could be looked at as being "less submissive" than another.

I personally don't understand how not giving/giving someone their materialistic needs/wants makes someone submissiveness ≤ or ≥ to another

I know I've been looked at that way before when I refused to tribute (granted, they're not wholly the same thing) someone. I actually had to laugh, because I explicitely stated my personal thoughts on that when asked to clarify.

My thoughts were: I don't mind tributing. I would gladly splurge on something that my Missus needed/wanted. However, for anyone to expect me to do that right off the bat, I find that laughable.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 9:11:56 PM

ShaktiSama

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I cannot fault anyone for saying "no" to another person's desires. I do it every single day, in various ways. Sometimes several times a day.

I do get tired sometimes of being battered by sexual needs and wants that I cannot fulfill, especially when I do not approach the person first to initiate contact. I can certainly sympathize with men who might feel overwhelmed or alienated by the material needs and wants of strange women. Perhaps it's safe to say that for some of us, certain intimacies are reserved for those who we love deeply? And they are not simply fun 'n' games type things which are done as part of "casual dating" or a non-committed D/S dynamic?

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 9:51:24 PM

Andalusite

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Noreen, the way you used switch to describe male submissives who don't meet your parameters as "switches" and saying that no Dommes will want them strikes me as a bit out of line. You also attacked me for being a switch, since I am a slave while having a female submissive who I tie up and thwack, and have had a submissive boyfriend in the past. You aren't a moderator, so it's not up to you to decide who gets to post where.

Shakti, I have some opinions on why more women don't enter the fields of science and math. I just finished an engineering-related degree 3 years ago, and I was very close to a second degree in math, biology, or chemistry (about 3 classes away for any one of the above). A BS isn't enough to get more than a very poorly paid entry level job in either field. You really need a graduate degree as well as experience, and I think that fewer women have the financial resources to stay out of the work force that long while they are in school, especially if they have familyresponsibilities. Women often are expected (by themselves, their husband, other relatives, and society in general) to carry the bulk of childcare and housekeeping burdens, and working, going to school, and building a family or relationship is *tough*. Part of it may also simply be a lack of interest, for whatever reason, just as more men like hockey while more women like figureskating. Society plays a big part in developing those inclinations, but they rarely outright dictate them. From what I understand from talking with other women, many of them, even ones who are only 10-15 years older than I am, faced a lot of direct pressure away from those fields. I haven't experienced it myself, and used to tutor math through Calculus, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, Stats, Physics, Chemistry, and Biology on the college and lower university levels. A lot of people who came to me for help had been so intimidated by teachers in Jr. High or High School that they were convinced they were bad at math. A few felt similarly about science, or other subjects, but it wasn't nearly as widespread. I usually was able to help them get to the root of those difficulties (not psychologically, but going back to the basic elements and building the foundation) and help them not only turn their grades around, but start *enjoying* the class. I think women tend to in general be less confrontational than men in a classroom environment, and it can be difficult for them to draw attention to themselves and say that they don't understand, especially if the teacher is condescending or rude about it. Most science and engineering degrees also require a lot of fairly high-level math, even if it isn't likely to be used much in the workplace.

As to men having problems with women who suddenly bring up tribute or financial domination (after several e-mails or meeting in person), I can understand where they are coming from. I've had men act like they were interested in me romantically and emotionally, then tell me that they weren't looking for a girlfriend, or didn't have time for one. I was very up-front that I wasn't interested in casual interactions, so it felt a bit like a bait and switch. I felt like they wasted my time, and sucked in my emotions while knowing that they had no intention of offering what I wanted. I can understand *wanting* a relationship and being incompatible - it still can hurt a bit, but I didn't feel lied to. I think that a lot of men have a similar visceral reaction when they discovered that a woman just wanted their money, not *them*. If both people are hot for it and up-front in their desires, go for it!

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 9/9/2009 10:56:52 PM >

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 11:00:06 PM

undergroundsea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Perhaps it's safe to say that for some of us, certain intimacies are reserved for those who we love deeply? And they are not simply fun 'n' games type things which are done as part of "casual dating" or a non-committed D/S dynamic?

I think these words in bold text are insightful, and the post as a whole serves to achieve a communication breakthrough this thread awaited. A point I would add is that intimacy and love (and, especially with this matter, trust!) come in shades of grey and what one does follows the progression of the shades.

quote:

I do get tired sometimes of being battered by sexual needs and wants that I cannot fulfill, especially when I do not approach the person first to initiate contact. I can certainly sympathize with men who might feel overwhelmed or alienated by the material needs and wants of strange women.

Indeed. I do not know firsthand how it feels to be objectified or used sexually. However, reflecting on how I feel when objectified or used financially has helped me empathize with women who feel that way. I felt some frustration when I conveyed the sentiments you describe and perceived them to be rejected by various posters (whom I will perhaps identify or address in a different post) along with tags of being cheap or untrue, which brings perspective about its mirror situation. I think part of the back and forth in this thread came for various people not feeling heard or acknowledged. I think your post brings a sense of feeling heard and acknowledged and achieves that communication breakthrough.

I think your last post also covered some distance in helping me achieve communication. I heard your message most clearly through that post.

So thank you for this post and for acknowledging, and for your efforts to explain your reasoning. If you feel there is more to be heard or acknowledged by me, I will gladly continue this conversation. If you would rather let this one rest and leave it for next time this topic arises (I think the next such thread is scheduled for September 16th ;-) ), I will gladly leave it for another time.

The only unfortunate part about this post is that Noreen will not find any reason to quote any part of it and a slow down in activity by her might let the cocksucking thread catch up with us ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/9/2009 11:35:24 PM

undergroundsea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
Women often are expected (by themselves, their husband, other relatives, and society in general) to carry the bulk of childcare and housekeeping burdens, and working, going to school, and building a family or relationship is *tough*.

I agree. I think this is a disadvantage that women have which could adversely impact them with earnings at the workplace. I worked in a progressive company and was involved in entry-level recruiting and promotion discussions. These discussions focused on performance and results and learning curve. In hi-tech companies in the private sector, it is uncommon to work only 40 hours a week. Performance and results are related to how much extra time one is able to work and how quickly one moves up the learning curve.

quote:

A lot of people who came to me for help had been so intimidated by teachers in Jr. High or High School that they were convinced they were bad at math. A few felt similarly about science, or other subjects, but it wasn't nearly as widespread. I usually was able to help them get to the root of those difficulties (not psychologically, but going back to the basic elements and building the foundation) and help them not only turn their grades around, but start *enjoying* the class. I think women tend to in general be less confrontational than men in a classroom environment, and it can be difficult for them to draw attention to themselves and say that they don't understand, especially if the teacher is condescending or rude about it. Most science and engineering degrees also require a lot of fairly high-level math, even if it isn't likely to be used much in the workplace.

These points also appeal to intuition.

In college I did volunteer tutoring for math and science for a program that was directed at potential first generation college students. I worked with two students. The first did not complete the program. The second one did. Her father would drive her to campus and wait in the car for an hour and a half or so. I sensed she was getting support and encouragement at home, which I think has tremendous importance. I think attitudes of counselors and, especially, teachers are also very important.

Thank you also for sharing your reasoning about the sociological aspects of the matter, and for drawing upon your personal experiences to empathize with others.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 12:02:57 AM

XYisInferior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

I'm not sure I find this style of labeling productive or helpful.

I've always found labels, terms and definitions help tremendously in communicating who we are and what we want. It's the accuracy and honesty regarding those labels that's the crux. And that was the crux.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
Regardless of which side of the gender equation you look from, the potential is there for misguided hubris and elitism.

I'd go one step further in saying there is more than potential at play. There are plenty of so-called "dominant" Women who use this venue as nothing more than a means to turn an easy dime or simply find a date. All this really puts an even clearer focus on the fact that for those who are actually seeking Mistress and slave relationships, the pickings are pretty slim. It is this reality which necessitates labels and clear understanding of what one is really seeking, in addition to a lot of soul searching and experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
We humans have complicated mating and partnering rituals. Finding a compatible partner is difficult for anyone, be they vanilla or kinky.

The problem is, however, some of us humans are not looking for these labels that you are now using, ironically. For some of us, it's not about finding "mates" or "life partners", being either "vanilla" or "kinky"; we are looking to serve or be served. Love and deep psychological intimacy can and often is a catalyst through which servitude and slave making happens, but the balance of love itself doesn't have to be there in the way many traditionally perceive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
Ironically, it seems a significant hurdle kinksters must sometimes overcome is a mindset focused on roles (dominants, switches, submissives, slaves, etc.) instead of people.

For "kinksters", I'd agree with you. But some of us would not prefer wearing that label in turn, however accurate that may be for you. For some of us, the terms Mistress and slave—and even submissive—have grave, particular meaning and form that can only be stretched so far before it's clear all that's really left is in fact a label. That's not being elitist; it's being logical and real about the ideals and desires that propel you. I'd also add that some people are, believe it or not, slaves and Mistresses. It's not always a front or dungeon persona, as the collective platitudinous wisdom often seems to gesture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
Truth be told, I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't appreciate being approached with courtesy, a sense of humour, intelligence, friendliness, empathy, and respect.

Again, these are very nice platitudes that will garner obligatory forum applause, but I'm not certain where in my recent writings you've felt I've expressed otherwise. In fact, every dominant Female I've ever known marks those qualifiers as prerequisites in exchange with a man who approaches Her.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 12:50:20 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I know I don't speak for all the short dominant women... but... you are such a brat Peon! To point out short dominant's... and use us for a joke! Wow!

You's in trouble now! Don'tcha know that dynomite comes in short packages? (lil smiley face dominant with whip! Cause I can't get the smilies to come up)

But dont forget one thing Lockit. When you are up on a pedastal, you are taller than you think.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 3:30:30 AM

MsStarlett

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quote:

But dont forget one thing Lockit. When you are up on a pedastal, you are taller than you think.

Stilettos help also.

Send me some. :D

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 1:51:48 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I think part of the back and forth in this thread came for various people not feeling heard or acknowledged. I think your post brings a sense of feeling heard and acknowledged and achieves that communication breakthrough.

Hope so. I'll see you on September 16th! Maybe by then we'll have something new and interesting to say to the guy who comes in bewailing all the professional profiles.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 1:59:15 PM

Lockit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I know I don't speak for all the short dominant women... but... you are such a brat Peon! To point out short dominant's... and use us for a joke! Wow!

You's in trouble now! Don'tcha know that dynomite comes in short packages? (lil smiley face dominant with whip! Cause I can't get the smilies to come up)

But dont forget one thing Lockit. When you are up on a pedastal, you are taller than you think.

I don't mind being short. I prefere a recliner though. Less likely to fall out or off like one can a pedastal! And I am as big as my ego or mind allows without blowing up. Besides I can always have him kneel... of course he is still almost as tall as I am kneeling. Oh well... with the inflated ego... I think I will be okay. hehe

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:14:48 PM

PeonForHer

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Some dommes' profiles I've seen make them look so petite you want to put them on the mantelpiece and dust them down. So cute!

Shall I quit while I'm ahead?

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:20:53 PM

Lockit

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LOL... I am kind of used to it Peon. I was called a pixie way into my forties. I never went out on St. Patty's day... never! It wasn't safe! The last time I did, a big guy grabbed me, held me up and ran around the bar yelling he found a leprechaun.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:23:15 PM

OttersSwim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Some dommes' profiles I've seen make them look so petite you want to put them on the mantelpiece and dust them down. So cute!

Shall I quit while I'm ahead?

Oh go on...you know you want to use the one about the Domme you almost bought at the Scratch & Dent sale...

*Hands Peon a shovel, and a snorkel*

By my calculation, you should come out somewhere in the Southern Ocean off the coast of New Zealand...

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 9/10/2009 2:27:29 PM >

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:33:08 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

LOL... I am kind of used to it Peon. I was called a pixie way into my forties. I never went out on St. Patty's day... never! It wasn't safe! The last time I did, a big guy grabbed me, held me up and ran around the bar yelling he found a leprechaun.

No! Tell me you made that up! *Cackle* It was your red hair partly to blame, if so. (Actually, I've never heard of a female leprechaun. I think they're only ever males, like dwarves. I'll ask an Irish friend to check.)

Psst - just between you and me - as a kid, I used to have D/s fantasies about Tinkerbell in Disney's Peter Pan.

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:35:48 PM

PeonForHer

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. . . . You're probably best advised not to ask me any details about those Tinkerbell fantasies, Lockit. Word to the wise.

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Post #: 1238

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:36:24 PM

Lockit

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Well, he was drunk I am sure!

Don't even mention tinkerbell to me! lol I grew up in Orange County with Disneyland and all that. I still want my gold tinkerbell necklace! Hummm tribute thread... gold necklace... this might work! hehe

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 9/10/2009 2:41:40 PM

PeonForHer

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When I went to the pub earlier for a Tribute Bitter, Dave the Barman tributed my loyal custom by pouring my Tribute before I'd even asked. I tributed him with £3.15 for my Tribute. He tributed me with a thanks, then I tributed him with a thanks for his tribute of pouring my Tribute. Then I left the beer undrunk, and went home with a headache instead.

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