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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 2:36:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: manxcat

uhhh tact for a murderer. surely you jest. there is no statue of limitations on murder.

Are you sure about that? The way I read it, from what I've seen today, whatever his sins, he almost certainly wasn't guilty of murder. Complicit in her death, yes, absolutely. Guilty of manslaughter, lying, using connections to bring money and influence to the table in order to squirrel out of the charges laid against him, yes. Conspiracy even, most likely.

But a murderer? No. The intent wasn't there. He simply fucked up in the biggest possible way, then behaved in a cowardly and deceitful manner afterwards.

If you know different please point me at the source, I'd be interested to read.

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 3:26:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I hope that he will get the justice he never got in the courts while he was alive.Now he will face his maker when money doesn't matter.

And we can only hope the same for you if it turns out you are wrong.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/26/2009 3:27:39 PM >

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 3:35:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: manxcat

uhhh tact for a murderer. surely you jest. there is no statue of limitations on murder.
I think one is supposed to feel remorse for that peace and forgiveness. Since he never acknowledged any murder, it is doubtful that he had any remorse. But maybe now her family can find peace.

Murder?

Sorry but even if the court had found him guilty it would not have been a murder charge.

But the court didn't.

So, unless you have some long-hidden evidence to prove your claim, your claim is baseless.

(in reply to manxcat)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:07:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: manxcat

uhhh tact for a murderer. surely you jest. there is no statue of limitations on murder.
I think one is supposed to feel remorse for that peace and forgiveness. Since he never acknowledged any murder, it is doubtful that he had any remorse. But maybe now her family can find peace.

Murder?

Sorry but even if the court had found him guilty it would not have been a murder charge.

But the court didn't.

So, unless you have some long-hidden evidence to prove your claim, your claim is baseless.

Ted pleaded guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury which now according the 1982 Mass law is vehicular homicide.Ted received a suspended sentence.

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:17:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMgm

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: manxcat

uhhh tact for a murderer. surely you jest. there is no statue of limitations on murder.
I think one is supposed to feel remorse for that peace and forgiveness. Since he never acknowledged any murder, it is doubtful that he had any remorse. But maybe now her family can find peace.

Murder?

Sorry but even if the court had found him guilty it would not have been a murder charge.

But the court didn't.

So, unless you have some long-hidden evidence to prove your claim, your claim is baseless.

Ted pleaded guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury which now according the 1982 Mass law is vehicular homicide.Ted received a suspended sentence.

Sorry? Are people now tried retrospectively in the states? Ie wasn't 1982 after Ted was dealt with by the courts? I thought that was in 69-70?

In any case, vehicular homicide in that case isn't murder. It isn't even manslaughter, as I understand it, although it's closer to that than murder.

And if his circumstances could truly be deemed to be "murder" then, frankly, the system is fucked up. Yes he was a cowardly little weasel, yes he almost certainly took part in a conspiracy to keep information concerning the event from the authorities, and yes, he doubtless brought every bit of power and influence to bear upon the courts, and was very wrong for doing so, but murder? No. At least, not as I understand the concept of “murder”.

Manslaughter, of a vehicular nature, would be my judgement. Not a nice thing, and his behaviour afterwards was truly beyond the pale, but not murder, or anything close to it.

To grade it as such cheapens genuine murder cases.

(in reply to MasterMgm)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:40:37 PM

Brain

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Stories about Ted Kennedy
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#32573067

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:50:38 PM

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The only theory that makes sense is that he raped her that night, then he murdered her to cover it up. Why else did he walk by so many doors he could have gotten help at, if it truly was an accident. She was going glub glub glub while he took his sweet time getting help.

I bet he wasn't even in the car when it went in the water, and I doubt that mary Jo was alive at the time either.

quote:

Yes he was a cowardly little weasel, yes he almost certainly took part in a conspiracy to keep information concerning the event from the authorities, and yes, he doubtless brought every bit of power and influence to bear upon the courts, and was very wrong for doing so, but murder?

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:55:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Stories about Ted Kennedy
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#32573067

Yes, lovely.

Are you saying a few nice stories excuse him?

He was a good politician, who was prevented from taking high office by the simple expedient of being a coward and a fraud, when it really counted.

I think the problem here is that I don't agree with demonising him, nor do I agree with making him a saint, or even a great man.

Basically, I'm doomed in this thread

(in reply to Brain)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:56:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMgm

Ted pleaded guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury which now according the 1982 Mass law is vehicular homicide.Ted received a suspended sentence.

Well, I tell you what Mgm, show me the statute you are referencing and point out where it says someone leaving the scene of an accident can be automatically charged with vehicular homicide.

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 4:56:31 PM

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No, it would make equally as much sense that Ronald Reagan did it and framed Ted Kennedy.

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:01:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The only theory that makes sense is that he raped her that night, then he murdered her to cover it up. Why else did he walk by so many doors he could have gotten help at, if it truly was an accident. She was going glub glub glub while he took his sweet time getting help.

I bet he wasn't even in the car when it went in the water, and I doubt that mary Jo was alive at the time either.

You know Sanity, your usual conspiracy theories I take with a grain of salt because aside from those you normally make some good arguments.

But if you don't see how you are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this absolute horseshit, I don't know what to say to you.

Just reading this kind of slimy crap about a man who has been dead less than a day and spent his life in the service of his country is absolutely nauseating.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:04:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The only theory that makes sense is that he raped her that night, then he murdered her to cover it up.

Not only isn't that the only theory that makes sense, it isn't even *a* theory that makes sense.

I've seen that written so many times, but I've never seen any coherent, factual evidence to back it up.

By all means post some, and by "post some", I mean post proper, coherent evidence, not just "I reckon he done raped her" stuff. There are literally dozens of reasons why that eventuality almost certainly isn't the case.

The probability was he was "just" (although I don't wish to trivialise it) drunk at the wheel; he then fucked up, as we all do from time to time, but then instead of just standing there and taking what was coming to him, he chose to bring a shedload of political weight to bear.

I'm glad the US demands more of its presidents.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:14:37 PM

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Anyone know if they did DNA testing on the baby? Mary Jo K. was 5 months, I believe, at the time of her death. Who'd da daddy....... ????

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:27:15 PM

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Had Ted Kennedy knocked on the first door he came to while Mary Jo Kopechne was drowning, I would be more inclined to believe that it was an accident. Or even the second door.

But the fact is he didn't, and so I'm not.

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:33:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit

Anyone know if they did DNA testing on the baby? Mary Jo K. was 5 months, I believe, at the time of her death. Who'd da daddy....... ????

No.

But hey, don't let that stop you from implying he was.

(in reply to willowspirit)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:34:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Had Ted Kennedy knocked on the first door he came to while Mary Jo Kopechne was drowning, I would be more inclined to believe that it was an accident. Or even the second door.

But the fact is he didn't, and so I'm not.

That still doesn't make it murder.

And I note my plea for hard evidence has fallen on deaf ears. No worries, I wasn't expecting anything else, coz there doesn't appear, from what I can see, to be any.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:35:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Had Ted Kennedy knocked on the first door he came to while Mary Jo Kopechne was drowning, I would be more inclined to believe that it was an accident. Or even the second door.

But the fact is he didn't, and so I'm not.

But yet you find yourself inclined to believe that he raped and murdered her?

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:41:56 PM

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There isn't hard evidence either way, not in your favor and not in mine. There is just the circumstantial evidence. Barney and Andy, friends of the family down at the primitive Mayberry Police department were in charge of bungling the investigation.

Something happened that night though, a woman died. It wasn't nothing.

I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours, but who is to say what the truth is?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
That still doesn't make it murder.

And I note my plea for hard evidence has fallen on deaf ears. No worries, I wasn't expecting anything else, coz there doesn't appear, from what I can see, to be any.

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RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:51:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

There isn't hard evidence either way, not in your favor and not in mine. There is just the circumstantial evidence. Barney and Andy, friends of the family down at the primitive Mayberry Police department were in charge of bungling the investigation.

Something happened that night though, a woman died. It wasn't nothing.

I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours, but who is to say what the truth is?

Well firstly, it's not a question of whose "favour" it's in. It's not a game, we're talking about the truth here, not an evening spent playing Monopoly.

Secondly, I don't have an "opinion", as I would hope my posts thus far in this thread have demonstrated. I'd merely like to get closer to the truth.

Thirdly, I believe a cornerstone of your legal process, as it used to be in the UK, pre NuLabour, is "Innocent until *proven* guilty" - in other words, let's see some actual evidence.

Fourthly ... well let's be honest, we can both see where this is going, can't we.

I don't think anyone is saying it was "nothing". The point is, it's a matter of record he definitely did act as coward and a liar. If you want to paint more than that major stain on a man's character (a stain, incidentally, that was enough for the people of America to choose not to give him his party's nomination for the candidacy for the white house) then I think it's only fair you make free with the evidence-flavoured stuff.

(in reply to Sanity)

RE: Senator Kennedy just died. - 8/26/2009 5:51:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit
Anyone know if they did DNA testing on the baby? Mary Jo K. was 5 months, I believe, at the time of her death.

It was speculated in the press that she was pregnant but it was never substantiated. No autopsy was done at the time of her death - just a quick examination - and her parents petitioned to stop an autopsy from being done primarily because they understood that the main purpose of an autopsy would be to determine if Mary Jo was pregnant. Their daughter was dead and nothing would bring her back and they let her rest in peace. I admire them to this day.

I cannot say the same thing for Ted Kennedy. It is unconscionable that the voters of Massachusetts rewarded Kennedy with forty more years in the Senate after what he did - and did not do - at Chappaquiddick.

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(in reply to willowspirit)

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