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Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:51:45 AM

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I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it. Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith. By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion. When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion. It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:57:20 AM

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No It's an ideology. And, there are no inherent hoops to jump through: just standing firm in "there is no god" will do it.
It does sometimes seem to attract some angry people (So too do religions, though but I actually do understand what you mean, I think): my ex- was an atheist who was rather rabid and anti-religion and would get downright offensive about his disdain for believers far sooner than would I (Agnostic here). Had he had faith and lost it, I would have found the ire easy to understand but that wasn't the case. He listerally believed that religion was a stupid crutch that people unwilling to stare their fears in the face kept and did ugly things in the name of. His own inability to master his own fears, in light of his dogmatism against religion sometimes amused me. Sometimes, it was anything but amusing. Being an atheist, however, does not presume an angry or negativistic worldview, however, imo. It's simply one option among many in terms of coming to terms with the Universe.
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 9/6/2009 9:58:43 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 9:58:11 AM

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According to the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and Supreme Court Rulings....

It is, legally, a religion.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 10:09:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.

Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith. By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.

When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion. It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?

Then you confuse philosophy, science, and religion, presenting them as essentially the same. Your standard is an arbitrary and false assumption.

"Atheism" means something only to Theists--and to some people who get their kicks attacking them. To define nonbelief as belief is illogical nonsense.

I don't believe in fairies. Therefore, I see the world that way, and should be known as an Afairist. Come on. That's silly of course--but it wouldn't be if a large group of people were trying to make laws and policies based on belief in fairies.

It's a label to corral a group for rhetorical criticism. Nothing more. If everyone were an Atheist, the term would have no meaning, because its purpose would have vanished.

It's not a belief. It's a rhetorical position.

Now--what the hell are you talking about, "hoops they jump through to maintain the position"? Talk about twisting. I don't accept that there's a god that explains the universe. There's no proof to support that. We don't know lots of things. We learn more as we go.

Btw, there aren't dragons either. No need to go slaying them.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/6/2009 10:13:28 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 10:10:11 AM

Arpig

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No. It is not a religion by your definition. There is no requirement of faith in an atheist view. One simply accepts what one can confirm, one accepts reality as perceivable without the addition of any non-observable details that require faith.
That being said,there are a number of atheists who will proselytize as fervently as any evangelical, so in that sense yes, it is like a religion. Personally I find a pushy atheist just as annoying as a pushy theist. They are both trying to convince me of the rightness of their position.

In another thread, I was asked what my conception of a God would be if one existed. After answering, my view and opinions were assailed by atheists, in an attempt to prove I was wrong. This struck me as rather funny...trying to prove my idea of what a God might be like was wrong because there is no God...the whole point of the question and answer was the supposition that a God did in fact exist, and how I would conceive of said God. As humourous as the situation was, it does demonstrate just how deeply religious some atheists are about their lack of belief in religion. In fact,none of the posters who do believe in God took me to task for having a very different concept of what a God might be like than theirs....somewhat interesting really.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 10:31:01 AM

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What is a religion?

If we accept it as a belief system built up around a Supreme Being, whether Allah, the Judeo-Christian God, Buddha, etc., then atheism is not a religion.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 10:44:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Then you confuse philosophy, science, and religion, presenting them as essentially the same. Your standard is an arbitrary and false assumption.

"Atheism" means something only to Theists--and to some people who get their kicks attacking them. To define nonbelief as belief is illogical nonsense.

I don't believe in fairies. Therefore, I see the world that way, and should be known as an Afairist. Come on. That's silly of course--but it wouldn't be if a large group of people were trying to make laws and policies based on belief in fairies.

It's a label to corral a group for rhetorical criticism. Nothing more. If everyone were an Atheist, the term would have no meaning, because its purpose would have vanished.

It's not a belief. It's a rhetorical position.

Now--what the hell are you talking about, "hoops they jump through to maintain the position"? Talk about twisting. I don't accept that there's a god that explains the universe. There's no proof to support that. We don't know lots of things. We learn more as we go.

Btw, there aren't dragons either. No need to go slaying them.

It looks like we have two points to look at here, Muse. First whether the absence of a belief constitutes a belief in itself. Unless you are suggesting that atheists are simply mindless, drifting, jellyfish, then they have some sort of belief system about how humans and earth and everything else got here. Is that belief based on some sort of "God," or not? We are only talking about one of the oldest questions our species has been asking, I must wonder why you are so ready to dismiss it as irrelevant. Made" or "just happened." If we were talking about how the quarter got under the pillow, then your afairist position would matter, would it not?

And are you saying that religion is not philosophy, and science does not depend on faith? I think you are confusing the particular study of Divinity with the much broader model of religion which encompasses them all.

There are hoops, Muse. Those who walk in childlike faith might never come to leaping through them, but every time I hear/see a suggestion that we need science instead of faith, I think of dark matter theory, where science insists that 80% of the universe is completely invisible and undetectable, but we have to believe in this magic dust, or the math won't work. That's a hoop, Muse.

Dragons make good metaphors.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:00:43 AM

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quote:

dark matter theory

The difference, Rich, is that in a faith-based model, a label is the end of the discussion. In science, there's this phenomenon, we have to call it something so we call it dark matter for now--and investigate it. It's the beginning of the conversation, not the end.

I think debating whether nonbelief = belief is inherently silly, so we'll just have to leave it at that. If up = down, if illogical = logical, meaningful conversation is fruitless. We're in Alice's courtroom.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/6/2009 11:02:55 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:06:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think debating whether nonbelief = belief is inherently silly, so we'll just have to leave it at that.

Fair enough then, Tim. I would call non-belief Agnosticism, rather than Atheism, though, and I have no idea if that would be a religion or not. Enjoy your day.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:11:12 AM

Arpig

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quote:

There are hoops, Muse. Those who walk in childlike faith might never come to leaping through them, but every time I hear/see a suggestion that we need science instead of faith, I think of dark matter theory, where science insists that 80% of the universe is completely invisible and undetectable, but we have to believe in this magic dust, or the math won't work. That's a hoop, Muse.

Not quite right. The Dark Matter theory does indeed posit that the bulk of the universe is made up of something we cannot see, but not something that cannot be measured. Its existence was first suspected because of just that fact...it can be measured due to its gravitational effect. Something that does not radiate visible radiation is exerting a massive gravitational pull on visible matter....that something is called dark matter.
That it exists cannot at this time be proven, but that it has an effect can be, and has been, proved. From the observed phenomena some sort of dark matter does indeed exist, and what scientists are trying to do is to find a way to directly observe it or to define it, at present the theory is simply that some such substance exists, and that basic posit has been confirmed. There is no need for faith,nor is there any purely hypothetical assumptions made simply so the math works. The theory came about in response to an observed phenomenon, and therefore does not constitute any sort of hoop....and it also has nothing to do with the existence or lack thereof of God. If you believe in God you still have the same observations, and dark matter still explains these observations....the only difference would be in the perceived origin of the dark matter.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:17:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Not quite right. The Dark Matter theory does indeed posit that the bulk of the universe is made up of something we cannot see, but not something that cannot be measured. Its existence was first suspected because of just that fact...it can be measured due to its gravitational effect. Something that does not radiate visible radiation is exerting a massive gravitational pull on visible matter....that something is called dark matter.

Right. Without the invisible stuff, the math doesn't work. Are you saying the magic dust doesn't represent a leap of faith that we have the math right?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:21:20 AM

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80% of the mass of our galaxy and all other galaxies like it is made up of something...we don't know what that something is...so we call it dark matter... (Sound-byte taken from one of my favorite trance songs).
Davan

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:24:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the US Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit and Supreme Court Rulings....

It is, legally, a religion.

Without actually reading the decision, I'm going to venture that they were upholding the right of atheists to be protected by laws and constitutional rights using the term "religion," because although atheism isn't a religion, it is a "religious belief," a belief regarding religion, so that in the spirit of the law, the same laws are intended to protect the rights of atheists and agnostics.

I understand that atheists do not feel that theirs is a faith-based cosmology, because they depend upon what can be detected by the senses to determine what is true and real. To me, it seems to be based upon complete faith in the senses and the material world as the ultimate and true last word on a finite reality.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:43:34 AM

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quote:

Are you saying the magic dust doesn't represent a leap of faith that we have the math right?

Are you saying that speculation and hypotheses are impossible without faith?

Doesn't that make "Let's test it and see!" meaningless? Scientists aren't testing to prove, but to learn--entirely ready to learn that the hypothesis doesn't work.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:45:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think debating whether nonbelief = belief is inherently silly, so we'll just have to leave it at that. If up = down, if illogical = logical, meaningful conversation is fruitless. We're in Alice's courtroom.

Not only is it silly, its the same tired old chesnut dragged up to try and prove Atheists do have a religion.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:47:52 AM

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quote:

I understand that atheists do not feel that theirs is a faith-based cosmology, because they depend upon what can be detected by the senses to determine what is true and real. To me, it seems to be based upon complete faith in the senses and the material world as the ultimate and true last word on a finite reality.

Then you make giant assumptions. Not everyone believes they know everything. Scientists certainly don't. You leave no room for learning, for not knowing.

Again, what's presented here is the faithful needing to label the Others. The label is meaningless but to the faithful.

Now, if legally those who don't adopt a faith find their rights are inhibited, then legally, they become a class. But not a religion.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 11:54:18 AM

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My post simply refers to the law... and how it views atheism.. and it views atheism as a religion.

http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=742

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/6/2009 11:55:04 AM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 12:19:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Your standard is an arbitrary and false assumption.... I don't believe in fairies. Therefore, I see the world that way, and should be known as an Afairist. Come on. That's silly of course

You don't believe in faeries, fine. The question is, are you prepared to state categorically and beyond all allowance for doubt that there is absolutely no such thing or even any possibility of such a thing as faeries? Because as you may have noticed, that is the typical stance of those who proclaim themselves Atheists, to wit...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

there are no inherent hoops to jump through: just standing firm in "there is no god" will do it.

And that is perfectly correct, because the dictionary definition is not limited to one who simply does not happen to believe in a surpreme being; it includes, and in some references means specifically, those who actively, firmly, and absolutely deny that there is such.

In my view, the latter is an assertion that is just as unprovable, and ultimately, therefore, just as much an assertion of faith, as its opposite.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/6/2009 12:33:17 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 12:35:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Doesn't that make "Let's test it and see!" meaningless?

Not at all, Tim! It isn't about the testing and questioning, it is about the faith that we have anything right to begin with.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/6/2009 12:36:19 PM

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Yep, atheism is a belief system, that I came to after believing there was a god to now knowing there are none. 'The great god Ra, whose temples covered acres/Is filler now for crossword puzzle makers'.

Imagine how many christians would stone him to death if zombie jesus, a good, or a metaphor for a good, man, came back to life as a fat 40-something jew? And imagine telling an alien race from another galaxy that you worship a zombie? And that people kill one another over books written thousands of years ago that say slavery is fine as long as slaves aren't from neighbouring nations, and that we should stone women who wear clothing made of two different threads? Or priests tell beaten women they shouldn't leave their husbands, murderers that as long as they ask for forgiveness whatever they do is just fine, and Galileo should be locked up for decades?

It's a fairy tale, and it's racism that makes people believe THEIR fairy tale makes them better than people who believe in OTHER fairy tales, and an excuse for wars over money, land and power.

Sabbaths are best spent making love and volunteering: now THAT's a belief system everyone should devote their lives to. Join the Brights today! We're the fastest growing belief system!! 25% of North Americans, and growing!

Even if you don't join the Brights, READ the bible. Cover to cover. Old testament only if you're jewish or muslim. Then wonder how in the days of literacy, hygiene and emancipation anyone can believe it's more than a fairy tale complete with more than a few morals now known to be misjudged or antique.

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